Is this cheating

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
4,316
Reaction score
587
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
A unit moves on wire and then moves underneath, now covered by the 5/8" wire counter. The next turn, the player looks at the map and says, "I moved everyone I can, your DF." It is clear that the player forgot about the unit under the wire counter.

Does the other player have an obligation to tell the moving player, you forgot the guy under the wire? Is that functionally different from, you forgot to roll for CS?

The SAN has must language sprinkled in A14. That one is different. I rolled your SAN. Not sure about the forgot stuff about CS and units under opaque fortification counters.
 

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
18,412
Reaction score
5,314
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
Does the other player have an obligation to tell the moving player, you forgot the guy under the wire? Is that functionally different from, you forgot to roll for CS?
IMO, it is different since I don't think making a CS DR is a choice, moving a unit is.....that being said, if I remember that unit under the Wire, I would might ask if my opponent wants to move it.
 

Paul John

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 1970
Messages
433
Reaction score
217
Location
Cincinnati Ohio
Country
llUnited States
It is clear that the player forgot about the unit under the wire counter.
I try to point out stuff like that and appreciate when my opponent does the same. I prefer to win/lose because of the game (or dice) and not make it a competition over who has the sharpest ability to maintain their attention to detail about stuff like that (except maybe in a tournament).
I did once forget to move a unit (and my opponent didn't notice) and then next turn he was accidentally in the perfect position to cause failure to rout for 4 squads and a 7-0, so there you go.
 

bendizoid

Official ***** Dickweed
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
3,925
Reaction score
2,176
Location
Viet Nam
Country
llUnited States
I try to point out stuff like that and appreciate when my opponent does the same. I prefer to win/lose because of the game (or dice) and not make it a competition over who has the sharpest ability to maintain their attention to detail about stuff like that (except maybe in a tournament).
I did once forget to move a unit (and my opponent didn't notice) and then next turn he was accidentally in the perfect position to cause failure to rout for 4 squads and a 7-0, so there you go.
Fort said it best “ I don’t want to win by ‘GOTCHA !’ “
 

ASLinRealTime

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
Messages
279
Reaction score
564
Location
PNW WA State
Country
llUnited States
The onus is on me to roll CS for my own vehicles, or notice when my opponent rolls my SAN number. I'm certainly not going to call him a cheater if he also doesn't notice or doesn't remind me. If anything I'd think what a dork I am for missing the obvious and try to be better about it.
 

Carln0130

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
5,585
Reaction score
1,775
Location
MA
Country
llUnited States
Fort said it best “ I don’t want to win by ‘GOTCHA !’ “
Yup. If that's the only way you can win, you should probably lose. I will say, " is that guy all set" or something like that.
 

Old Noob

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
1,078
Reaction score
1,017
Country
llUnited States
Many years ago, I was buying Fire For Effect magazine. In one issue was a cardstock reminder of both side's ELR and SAN.
Whenever I'm playing a scenario, I bring it out for use.
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
11,321
Reaction score
1,799
Location
The Empty Quarter
Country
llLithuania
Ooh. What's the collective wisdom about this? I thought this was/is a legitimate tactic, throwing away a concealment counter or two to throw off the opponent who might assume the last concealed unit has to be a dummy. Is this cheating?!
As Klas mentions, you can leave off any part of your OOB that you see fit. Anything left off is considered to be eliminated for purposes of scenario victory consideration. This has been codified and formalized by Perry in a PerrySez
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
11,321
Reaction score
1,799
Location
The Empty Quarter
Country
llLithuania
The onus is on me to roll CS for my own vehicles, or notice when my opponent rolls my SAN number. I'm certainly not going to call him a cheater if he also doesn't notice or doesn't remind me. If anything I'd think what a dork I am for missing the obvious and try to be better about it.
The onus is on both players to see that the rules of the game are complied with.

The rulz for SAN state that:
"A player is subject to Sniper attack during any PFPh, MPh, DFPh or AFPh whenever he makes a TH, MC, TC, non-OBA IFT, or Entrenching, Original DR [EXC: those made for Prisoners] equal to the enemy SAN."
It is not an option for anybody to decide if it happens or not. It happens, PERIOD. If a player knowingly allows the game to proceed without it happening when it should, that falls into the category of cheating, at least most people I play with and respect.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
4,667
Reaction score
2,791
Country
llUnited States
A lot also depends on the amount of refreshments consumed. As this is typically done with friends it's just a couple of wasted old farts playing a game.
 

bendizoid

Official ***** Dickweed
Joined
Sep 11, 2006
Messages
3,925
Reaction score
2,176
Location
Viet Nam
Country
llUnited States
The onus is on both players to see that the rules of the game are complied with.

The rulz for SAN state that:


It is not an option for anybody to decide if it happens or not. It happens, PERIOD. If a player knowingly allows the game to proceed without it happening when it should, that falls into the category of cheating, at least most people I play with and respect.
There is lee way on the mechanical reliability DR thing: D 2.51. This rule apparently can be ignored until a opportune time to remember. Just like real life, your stuff breaks at the worst place at the worst time. Need a side shot ? Check reliability there ! Need a street fight ? Check there ! Need a stupid hex that sees nothing important ? Check there !. I’m waiting for this to ever work. Notice the phasing player can’t pretend to forget the mechanical reliability DR, he/she must honestly forget. Only the nonphasing player can temporarily pretend to intentionally forget. Got it ?
 
Last edited:

ASLinRealTime

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
Messages
279
Reaction score
564
Location
PNW WA State
Country
llUnited States
It is not an option for anybody to decide if it happens or not. It happens, PERIOD. If a player knowingly allows the game to proceed without it happening when it should, that falls into the category of cheating, at least most people I play with and respect.
Then everyone must "cheat" every game because no one remembers, enforces, or even plays 100% of the rules right in any game I've ever seen or played. 😁

I mean, is not rolling for wind change each rally phase considered cheating? Because I don't see many players do it.

Rules are never 100% complied with, doesn't mean it's cheating.
 

brunger

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
230
Reaction score
256
Location
ouston
Country
ll
The onus is on both players to see that the rules of the game are complied with.

The rulz for SAN state that:


It is not an option for anybody to decide if it happens or not. It happens, PERIOD. If a player knowingly allows the game to proceed without it happening when it should, that falls into the category of cheating, at least most people I play with and respect.
The Rule Book 📖 is watching!! It will find you out and pay you Back?? Never underestimate the sneaky rule books ability for retribution 😳
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,213
Reaction score
794
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
Thanks for all the insight (I tried to "like" all the participants).

I feel that calling out rules (SAN, CS, etc) is the responsibility of both players. But if I forget something that a unit can do or something else that is just bad play on my part (that happens a lot :D) that is a different story. My two main ASL opponents and I play a pretty friendly game. If someone is under a wire counter, we usually say "you want to move him?".

This is a complicated game and everyone forgets stuff.

Peace

Roger
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,213
Reaction score
794
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
Then everyone must "cheat" every game because no one remembers, enforces, or even plays 100% of the rules right in any game I've ever seen or played. 😁

I mean, is not rolling for wind change each rally phase considered cheating? Because I don't see many players do it.

Rules are never 100% complied with, doesn't mean it's cheating.

Agreed...... What I am talking about is knowingly not calling a DR/dr as needed to enforce a rule.

Let me be clear, I do not think that things like this happen very often, but a friend told me an interesting story the other day about a game he was playing and it felt like an odd coincidence and like Leroy Jethro Gibbs, I tend not to believe in coincidences. 🆒.

Peace

Roger
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,213
Reaction score
794
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
As Klas mentions, you can leave off any part of your OOB that you see fit. Anything left off is considered to be eliminated for purposes of scenario victory consideration. This has been codified and formalized by Perry in a PerrySez
I never knew this........

Peace

Roger
 

Tuomo

Keeper of the Funk
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
Messages
3,852
Reaction score
3,691
Location
Rock Bottom
Country
llUnited States
As Klas mentions, you can leave off any part of your OOB that you see fit. Anything left off is considered to be eliminated for purposes of scenario victory consideration. This has been codified and formalized by Perry in a PerrySez
Has anyone ever done this, and why?
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
4,316
Reaction score
587
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
I think that SAN is different. I roll my dice and call the result. If I pick them up before the other player has a chance to digest the situation, I have to call your SAN.

The other stuff is not dependent on the pips on my dice.

That being said, I don't A.2 to my opponents but never insist that my opponent allow me to go back in time and roll that forgotten weapon repair, etc. I almost always get what I give and we have a cordial game. The win at all costs ... we are not playing for grocery money. I prefer to win but my first preference is to contemplate the puzzle while having an interesting conversation with someone with whom I have shared interests. Some of my best games found me getting my clock cleaned and some of my least enjoyable games had me winning. Pleasure and victory do not have a 1:1 correlation, some correlation but not 1:1.
 
Top