Is slow play at events a common occurrence?

How often has slow play been a significant problem at an event you have attended?


  • Total voters
    35

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,208
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
As the TD of the ASL OPEN before I took the OPEN to VASL, I was fairly ruthless in forcing slow matches to be terminated at the end time of the round. I simply told the players, you decide now who is the winner. Usually that ended the problem because with I think only one or two exceptions over the years when I used that system, the players knew who was going to be the winner. If they couldn't decide, then I would tell them I will decide by roling a die in a few minutes if they couldn't agree between themselves. I gave up about 10 years ago trying to analyze the pros and cons of each player's position and making a call based on my estimation of the probable winner. Usually when I announced the die roll was going to decide, they would agree on a victor.

All in all, at the OPEN they only times (I think it was twice in about the last 10 years) I let a match go on was in the second to last round when the winner was going to remain undefeated. Then I extended their match for about 30 minutes because they were close to a clear win/loss determination. Meanwhile except for their possible opponents, I started all the other matches.
I'd take a very similar approach if I were a TD, and I believe what you describe (or something close to it) is 'Standard Operating Procedure'.

I am most familiar with GRENADIER. The morning round games (including the final) have fixed deadlines. If a game is still running them but it is apparent that only a few minutes are required to decide it, this is usually accepted. Otherwise the players mostly determining the 'most likely winner' amongst themselves. If they can't agree, the game is judged by the TD plus another experienced player with the TD having the final say.
The afternoon games are usually "open end". Most of the games end in a usual timeframe. It is normally two or three which last significantly longer than the rest. This may be due to secenario selected by the players, the tactical situation or the style of play.

von Marwitz
 

sdennis

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Messages
1,486
Reaction score
963
Location
Wixom, Michigan
Country
llUnited States
So is it better to play the perfect game to get better or play more games to get better?
I know people who fall into both categories. I think the latter is more likely to lead to being better because in the end we are rolling dice. Neil tends to get the most pissed when the dice cause the slim odds to happen. "Come on! That's not supposed to happen!" is a common occurrence in our houses! :)

The danger for me is that Neil and I don't care very much about speed of play and if I start reattending tourneys will I be one of those slow people pissing others off?

If I end up being the cause of us reaching the time limit you can win... just not that important!
 
Last edited:

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,995
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
So is it better to play the perfect game to get better or play more games to get better?
I know people who fall into both categories. I think the latter is more likely to lead to being better because in the end we are rolling dice. Neil tends to get the most pissed when the dice cause the slim odds to happen. "Come on! That's not supposed to happen!" is a common occurrence in our houses! :)

To danger for me is that Neil and I don't care very much about speed of play and if I start reattending tourneys will I be one of those slow people pissing others off?

If I end up being the cause of us reaching the time limit you can win... just not that important!
More games was our philosophy.

If I was playing a new player or one not used to tournament play I wouldn't GAF about winning or the scenario taking too long. Ensuring my opponent enjoyed the game is much more important to me than winning.

Hopefully the scenario would be a learning experience for us both.
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,995
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
More games was our philosophy.

If I was playing a new player or one not used to tournament play I wouldn't GAF about winning. Ensuring my opponent enjoyed the game is much more important to me than winning.
I didn't win much anyway!
 

Old Noob

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
2,177
Reaction score
2,330
Country
llUnited States
We all started out in this game playing slow, then we began getting faster in speed of play.
But everyone's speed of play is different, we all can't be Ricochet Rabbit fast.
But if Timmy Tortoise is holding up a tourney round, then the TD needs to step in.
 
Last edited:

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
14,358
Reaction score
10,208
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llUkraine
So is it better to play the perfect game to get better or play more games to get better?
I think the important thing to realize is that it is different rather than better/worse.

Style of play might be a matter of skill when you start off - more difficult to play very fast then even if you want to.

Besides that, some people simply have more fun playing fast while others prefer a slow and deliberate style.

The whole thing is a matter of personal preference the more experienced you get.
And I am of the conviction that no style is better/worse than the other.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,995
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
I think the important thing to realize is that it is different rather than better/worse.

Style of play might be a matter of skill when you start off - more difficult to play very fast then even if you want to.

Besides that, some people simply have more fun playing fast while others prefer a slow and deliberate style.

The whole thing is a matter of personal preference the more experienced you get.
And I am of the conviction that no style is better/worse than the other.

von Marwitz
Has there ever been a perfect game of ASL played? If so they are few in number.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,596
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Isn't the issue a question of balance ?
And of people trying to offer their opponent a pleasing game experience?
Extremely slow or extremely fast players both could reveal that they are hardly interested about the comfort of their opponent.
Because ASL is an interactive game, you cannot leave the table when your opponent drags the game.
And if they rush their play, they don't allow to think one's reactions to their moves well.
Dialog and respect should allow reasonable people to get along.
 

sdennis

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Messages
1,486
Reaction score
963
Location
Wixom, Michigan
Country
llUnited States
Style of play might be a matter of skill when you start off - more difficult to play very fast then even if you want to.

von Marwitz
I know SEVERAL people who are seemingly trying to play the perfect game, i.e. if I make these moves I have a 92.4% chance of winning. And that type of factoring takes TIME.

Not my cup of tea.

If you and I play and at the end you say, "Hey, you know if you had done X and Y in Turn 5, I think you would have locked it up" is no big deal to me, won't make me feel bad, inferior, or anything. I might hopefully catch a similar situation next time, but not if I'm so slow no one wants to play me!

Maybe it's why we drink so much wine while playing, Neil and I. More fun that way.

We are already planning our retirement matches.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,596
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I had an opponent check all factors to optimize his game.
He was skilled.
But he took three times longer than me to play.
It was annoying, even though he is a nice person.
 

Stewart

Elder Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
3,384
Reaction score
625
Location
Russia
Country
llRussia
So the ASL community needs new players (which are slow), but not experienced players, which are slow?

von Marwitz
The experienced players aren't going to get any faster...the newer ones will...simply by virtue of learning the ruleset.
 

sdennis

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Messages
1,486
Reaction score
963
Location
Wixom, Michigan
Country
llUnited States
I had an opponent check all factors to optimize his game.
He was skilled.
But he took three times longer than me to play.
It was annoying, even though he is a nice person.
This is what I'm talking about... it's not chess.
The more you play the more you FEEL the right move in any given situation. I'm not playing enough to be there now but I was at one point when I was doing two tourneys a year, playing multiple people at home, etc.

Pleva is not slow... :)
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,468
Reaction score
4,995
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
This is what I'm talking about... it's not chess.
The more you play the more you FEEL the right move in any given situation. I'm not playing enough to be there now but I was at one point when I was doing two tourneys a year, playing multiple people at home, etc.

Pleva is not slow... :)
The more you play the faster you are able to play, if that's what you want. There are ways to speed the game up without necessarily playing faster. Memorizing the IFT and COT helps speed up the game. Constantly looking at charts really slows the game down. Immediately replaying the same scenario cuts down setup time and allows more time for gunnin.
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,596
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
The more you play the more you FEEL the right move in any given situation.
I am not a top notch player, but I have integrated many routines of the system, so that I don't spend as much time on some processes than at my beginnings.
I also quite often roll the dice before computing the DRMs, when I know by experience that the odds are low.
I don't check the result if the DR is medium to high (e.g. an AFPh situation where an AFV "marks" a hex containing a concealed target, using ATT to acquire the hex : at >= +7 DRM, a hit is mostly improbable).
There also are ways to maneuver that are quite straightforward.
When such routines are second nature, you can concentrate on more unusual moves and situations.

Now, I confess that I am not looking for the perfect game at all.
I am telling myself a story and I am trying to address the situation in a reasonably good way.
I will certainly try to win the scenario and thus offer my opponent a challenge, within some limits.
But, as you say, this is not chess.
Fun has priority over brain-burning.
This is Hollywood and I don't want the movie to be as boring as a bookkeeping exercise.
 
Last edited:

pensatl1962

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
666
Reaction score
514
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
New players need to be given some leeway as they are learning and they'll need to look up rules, etc. But experienced players should know that this is a tournament setting, which by nature is strictly time-limited. If they are uncomfortable with completing, for example, a 5.5 turn scenario in a four-hour round, then maybe tournaments aren't their bag. I think you owe it to your opponent to make the game engaging and fun, and for my opinion watching someone count out the 12 ways he can move a halftrack into position to unload is gut-wrenchingly un-fun.
 

pensatl1962

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
666
Reaction score
514
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Isn't the issue a question of balance ?
And of people trying to offer their opponent a pleasing game experience?
Extremely slow or extremely fast players both could reveal that they are hardly interested about the comfort of their opponent.
Because ASL is an interactive game, you cannot leave the table when your opponent drags the game.
And if they rush their play, they don't allow to think one's reactions to their moves well.
Dialog and respect should allow reasonable people to get along.
Dialog can help. I've had to mention to one opponent something to the effect "we're two hours in and only in the middle of turn 2; I think we need to step it up a bit..."
 
Top