Is 'Golden Compass' 'selling atheism to kids'?

[Dr Zaius]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/12/03/golden.compass.religion.ap/index.html

It seems this movie has some controversial themes.

 

[Dr. Winston O'Boogie]

As the article says, the movie and books are essentially the anti-Narnia, so even if it has atheistic themes (and it does, and that intrigues me), it's just as much "selling atheism" than Narnia was "selling Christianity".

 

[Scott Tortorice]

While I don't believe the movie is going to be anti-Christian/Catholic (reportedly, the studio has gone to great lengths to keep it benign), the books clearly are meant to be an atheist antidote to Narnia.

Check out this press release from the Catholic League:

“GOLDEN COMPASS” SPIN DOCTORS

November 26, 2007


Catholic League president Bill Donohue commented today as follows:

“The spin doctors for ‘The Golden Compass’ are working overtime to rescue the movie from Philip Pullman’s agenda. Here’s a sampling:

“In yesterday’s Boston Globe, the film studio’s house theologian, Donna Freitas, said Pullman’s books ‘are deeply Christian in their theology.’ Then how does she explain why the English atheist organization, the National Secular Society, loves Pullman’s books? And how does she explain Pullman’s statement that he agrees with his character Mary Malone who, in The Amber Spyglass (the third volume of his trilogy), says, ‘The Christian religion is a very powerful and convincing mistake’?

“In the current Newsweek, Pullman lashes out at me saying, ‘To regard it [his storytelling] as this Donohue man has said—that I’m a militant atheist, and my intention is to convert people—how the hell does he know that?’ That’s easy—I just quote him: ‘I’m trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief.’

“In his books, Pullman refers to ‘Dust’ as an invisible substance with mysterious qualities. To Dr. Spin, Freitas, ‘Dust is the Holy Spirit.’ Really? Then why did the screenwriter, Chris Weitz, tell Hanna Rosin of the Atlantic Monthly that the producers of the movie told him to take the following line out of the film: ‘Dust is sin’?

“Weitz recently said it is ‘wrongheaded’ to say Pullman wants to ‘kill God.’ Yet Pullman has admitted that ‘My books are about killing God.’

“Both Weitz and Pullman confess that their primary goal is to see that ‘The Golden Compass’ succeeds so that there will be a film version of books two and three. Weitz has said that the producer, New Line Cinema, has been concerned about the movie’s ‘perceived antireligiosity making it an unviable project financially.’ Thus, the need to water down the anti-Catholicism. Pullman says he needs to be careful talking about his motives lest he ‘talk the other two films out of existence.’ To which I say, ‘Keep talking and insert foot.’”

 

[Dr Zaius]

Did I miss something? Where in Narnia were the references to Christ? I do remember Santa showing up for about 30 seconds, but Santa appears in Elf also and I don't remember people saying Elf was "selling Christianity."

Enlighten me. What scenes in Narnia had specific references to Christianity?

 

[Dr. Winston O'Boogie]

Did I miss something? Where in Narnia were the references to Christ? I do remember Santa showing up for about 30 seconds, but Santa appears in Elf also and I don't remember people saying Elf was "selling Christianity."

Enlighten me. What scenes in Narnia had specific references to Christianity?

Here's an article where Pulman, the writer of the books the movie is based on, attacks the movie for values he dislikes, among them religion.

EDIT: But nevermind Narnia, it's terrible how pornographic it seems to be for a popular work of art to include atheistic ideas or for the author admit he wants to subvert religion.

 

[JAMiAM]

And how, exactly, is selling atheism to kids worse than selling religion to kids?

 

[Dr Zaius]

And how, exactly, is selling atheism to kids worse than selling religion to kids?

I don't remember anyone here saying it was. :hmmm: I don't think the CNN article said that either. CNN simply reported that some people of faith were upset because the author of this movie has been so openly anti-Christian and has publicly stated his intent is to undermine religion. The minute he uttered such things in public he stepped into the world of politics, and I guess CNN thought that was a newsworthy story.

But back to the point at hand, where exactly was Narnia selling religion of any kind? I must have missed it because all I remember seeing was lions and other creatures fighting for freedom against a murderous witch bent on tyranny and slavery. I don't remember anyone talking about God, salvation, damnation, forgiveness or anything even remotely related to those issues. The main theme was good vs. evil and freedom vs. tyranny. Now if that's all it takes for a movie to be "preaching" religious themes, then Lord of the Rings was a bible-thumping revival of massive proportions! And surely Star Wars' blend of quasi-spirituality mixed with light and dark sides of all powerful "force" must qualify as religion of some type. And what about Battlestar Galactica's heavy emphasis on religious ceremony and faith?

I don't understand why Narnia is somehow being singled out for special treatment as preaching when I completely failed to see any such reference. On the other hand, the movies I mentioned above all delve pretty deeply into spirituality and faith and I have never heard any criticism of them. I don't have any idea what's in the Narnia books, so maybe part of this reaction is coming from something in the books?

Moving on. I read the BBC article where Pullman attacks Narnia. To be completely honest, I found his assessment so half-assed I had to laugh out loud. His characterization of the film as "racist" is more than a little bizarre and I can't even imagine what he might have been referring to. I guess he meant the people were intolerant and "racist" about deformed monsters and foul beasts that want to eat or enslave them. I'm shocked -- shocked I say! -- that the good people and peaceful creatures of Narnia were at war with the ogres and minotaurs. Insensitive bastards. Perhaps they should all be sent off to reeducation camp in Rio Linda.

 

[Tater]

And how, exactly, is selling atheism to kids worse than selling religion to kids?

It isn't...particularly since "atheism" is in fact a religion itself.

OTOH, any time anyone tries to "sell" Christianity to kids people like you start squawking...well, if both are "bad" to try and "sell" to kids why aren't you squawking about the "Golden Compass"?

Why? I'll tell you why...because it's your home team playing this time.

 

[Pdqport]

But back to the point at hand, where exactly was Narnia selling religion of any kind?

It's pretty well known that the Chronicles of Narnia, in novel form, contain some Christian themes. I don't think that the movie captures those themes in the same way the books express them. And I wouldn't characterize either the books or film as "Selling Christianity", but the themes are there. The death and "resurrection" of Aslan is one of the more obvious examples that is frequently cited.

C.S. Lewis had a strong interest in theological questions. He was an atheist for many years of his early life, he had an interest in the occult, and ultimately returned to Christianity in his 30s.

He is alternately slammed for promoting Christianity and paganism in the Chronicles of Narnia. I guess there's ammunition for both in the books, depending on your point of view.

 

[Dr. Winston O'Boogie]

It isn't...particularly since "atheism" is in fact a religion itself.

That's a gross mischaracterization.

OTOH, any time anyone tries to "sell" Christianity to kids people like you start squawking...well, if both are "bad" to try and "sell" to kids why aren't you squawking about the "Golden Compass"?

Why? I'll tell you why...because it's your home team playing this time.

Who's ever "squawked" about promoting Christianity to kids? It's a very common practice for children to attend church or sunday school. These institutions are hardly controversial.

I'm not so afraid of opposing viewpoints that I will whine until they're censored. It would be stupid to shield children from the ideas of both religion or atheism (especially the former since they're so obviously apparent) in hopes that ignorance will somehow lead to enlightenment.

 

[Dr Zaius]

It's pretty well known that the Chronicles of Narnia, in novel form, contain some Christian themes. I don't think that the movie captures those themes in the same way the books express them. And I wouldn't characterize either the books or film as "Selling Christianity", but the themes are there. The death and "resurrection" of Aslan is one of the more obvious examples that is frequently cited.

I wondered whether the books might include additional content or characterize events that happened in the movie in a totally different way. Honestly, I would not have even considered the return of the lion to be a "resurrection" or a reference to Christianity had it not been pointed out that the books hint at this theme. That's a pretty thin reference. In the movie he was just a lion that showed up at the end of the movie.

Yes, now that you mention it I can see how this could be interpreted in a religious fashion. But being completely fair, no more so than when the wizard returns from the dead to lead the forces of good to victory at the end of Dragonslayer. I have a hard time accepting that Dragonslayer was a Christian-themed movie? And what about when Conan's girl returns from the dead as a valkyrie warrior at the end of Conan the Barbarian? True, she is sent back by a god (Crom) to do battle with the forces of evil, but I never even considered Conan the Barbarian as "preaching" Christian ideals.

I imagine that the Narnia books must deal with these themes in some fashion, but the Hollywood studios felt it best to water that element of the story down quite a bit. I have not seen the Golden Compass movie, but from what I have heard the atheist themes are pretty strong and Hollywood felt it was appropriate to leave them largely intact. The CNN article seemed to imply that was part of the fuss.

Mind you, I'm not saying that either of these movies was right or wrong. I just didn't see why the Narnia movie was being attacked as "racist" and "misogynistic" for themes that I couldn't even find.

 

[Dr Zaius]

I want to return to JAMiAM's original question because it is an interesting one.

And how, exactly, is selling atheism to kids worse than selling religion to kids?

Forget the Narnia and Golden Compass movies for a minute, is it acceptible to present any and all religions, lifestyles, concepts, and worldview's to children?

[Slippery slope warning]

Should communism receive a fair shake and be presented on equal terms along with democracy? What about gay and straight lifestyle? Faith vs. atheism? Do these themes have a place in mainstream movies intended for children?

 

[Blackcloud6]

Should communism receive a fair shake and be presented on equal terms along with democracy? What about gay and straight lifestyle? Faith vs. atheism? Do these themes have a place in mainstream movies intended for children?

Well I've raised two children and never had a problem with anything presented to them in a film. I taught them early on to be discriminatory in what they watch, take things with a grain of salt and to talk about it with their parents. I found out that by not hiding them from anything, it was much easier to work through it.

After a rather bad experience in an evangelical church, and then looking back over how I and my wife received religious "education" (both in different mainstream churches) I am almost to the conclusion that the way religion "teaches" children about the particular religion and so-called "truth," is nothing more than indoctrination and almost brainwashing that I think the church does more harm to someone's ability to reason and be a critical thinker in the long run than any fantasy movie out there.

 

[Pdqport]

Yes, now that you mention it I can see how this could be interpreted in a religious fashion. But being completely fair, no more so than when the wizard returns from the dead to lead the forces of good to victory at the end of Dragonslayer. I have a hard time accepting that Dragonslayer was a Christian-themed movie? And what about when Conan's girl returns from the dead as a valkyrie warrior at the end of Conan the Barbarian? True, she is sent back by a god (Crom) to do battle with the forces of evil, but I never even considered Conan the Barbarian as "preaching" Christian ideals.

C.S. Lewis and his stories get singled out because he was well known for his religious beliefs. He went on record with some strongly expressed views and he welcomed discussion of theology. So even now a movie based on his books receives a lot of flak.

All-in-all, the religious themes in Narnia seem pretty subtle and the story can be enjoyed simply as good fantasy. I think if Lewis had been less public in his views, most people would have never picked up on any 'message' in his stories.

 

[Scott Tortorice]

Here's a good article on Lewis, Narnia & Christianity:

Back to Narnia

Lewis's approach works because he doesn't whack readers over the head with what he's doing. "Some people," he once commented,

"seem to think that I began by asking myself how I could say something about Christianity to children; then fixed on the fairy tale as an instrument, then collected information about child psychology and decided what age group I'd write for; then drew up a list of basic Christian truths and hammered out "allegories" to embody them. This is all pure moonshine. I couldn't write in that way. It all began with images; a faun carrying an umbrella, a queen on a sledge, a magnificent lion. At first there wasn't anything Christian about them; that element pushed itself in of its own accord."

 

[Pdqport]

Forget the Narnia and Golden Compass movies for a minute, is it acceptible to present any and all religions, lifestyles, concepts, and worldview's to children?

[Slippery slope warning]

Should communism receive a fair shake and be presented on equal terms along with democracy? What about gay and straight lifestyle? Faith vs. atheism? Do these themes have a place in mainstream movies intended for children?

It's a question of age appropriateness and how the themes are presented. In the case of Narnia even if you believe that there are Christian themes present, it's hard to argue that it's overt or preaching. Most kids would never pick up on it one way or the other. I read the books in the fourth grade and religion was the farthest thing from my thoughts as I read them. I just thought they were really cool fantasy.

I have a three year old daughter. We're not a traditionally religious family, but I don't freak out when she watches Veggie Tales because there's a bible verse at the end or a reference to God every now and then. Whether you believe in one thing or another, you have to admit that "Love Thy Neighbor" is a pretty good message for a three year old. Especially when it's presented by a talking cucumber.

 

[Tater]

That's a gross mischaracterization.

It is a spot on characterization...

Atheism has it's own dogma, bibles, theology and gods. They are buried under a whole lot of subtleties...but they are certainly present.

 

[alanp]

Douglas Gresham, C.S. Lewis' step-son, co-produced the LWW film. Google his name and you'll find interviews with him from, say, Christianity Today, if you want more info on the whole religious imagery of the book and movie. I heard a radio interview with him when LWW came out and imagine something similar may happen when Prince Caspian is released next Spring.

Dr. Winston 'o Boogie: would you say, then, that atheism is more dangerous than religion since it's modus operandi is more subtle? :devious:
Personally I prefer agnosticism to atheism; I'm all for God, wish Him well and hope He feels the same.

[disclaimer: the use of the masculine pronoun 'he' should not be taken as any sort of judgment as to God's chromosonal make-up. ]

 

[alanp]

IBDb's entry on Chris Weitz, the first director of GC reports that what GC is "selling" is self-discovery and non-conformism, as it were, or a disregarding of authority.

This humanism goes hand-in-hand with atheism. Man as the Measure of All Things needs a healthy dose of skepticism and judgment--nay, wisdom even!--and few kids are so equipped.

Edit: noon, 12/5; Michael Medved is currently discussing this movie on his radio show.

 

[BitterPill]

C.S. Lewis and his stories get singled out because he was well known for his religious beliefs. He went on record with some strongly expressed views and he welcomed discussion of theology. So even now a movie based on his books receives a lot of flak.

I agree. I think the flak is misplaced, too. I only have my personal experience to go on, however.

All-in-all, the religious themes in Narnia seem pretty subtle and the story can be enjoyed simply as good fantasy. I think if Lewis had been less public in his views, most people would have never picked up on any 'message' in his stories.

As a child, I enjoyed reading the Narnia tales. It was vivid, and I was unaware of any possible religious 'message' in those books until I was older, almost an adult, and learned of Lewis's other writings.

Even now that I know that, Narnia, as you said, seems 'pretty subtle' and a 'good fantasy' as well.