Is ASL Ameritrash?

Gordon

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From what I've read a fair number of Brits hated Montgomery. I think the required personality type necessary to rise to the level of high command in ANY army precludes most people from be universally loved and admired.
 

Michael Dorosh

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From what I've read a fair number of Brits hated Montgomery. I think the required personality type necessary to rise to the level of high command in ANY army precludes most people from be universally loved and admired.
Churchill did not like him, to be sure. Eisenhower tolerated him. Those below him probably had a rosier view of him. Certainly veteran's accounts of men in the ranks found his manner appealing. He was difficult to work for directly (or if he reported directly to you) - Crerar scrapped with him a bit, and Monty had little regard for Crerar (Monty famously said "Crerar took over 1st Canadian Army at noon, he made his first mistake at 1205 and the next after lunch.") Guy Simonds was an exception - he commanded II Canadian Corps and at times acting command of 1st Canadian Army. The two were apparently thick as thieves. Simonds, an artillery officer, even adopted Monty's RAC beret.
 

von Marwitz

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IMHO both Patton and Montgomery were intolerable pretentious pumping bumholes.

Patton was a plain ar**hole who outrageously called everybody a coward who would not jump at the opportunity to throw away his life to further Patton's scheme of his own greatness. I despise the likes of him. He might have had a knack to grab some opportunities but if his overbearing plans were checked by reality, he wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice his soldiers in an attempt to saving his ego in an attempt to force it 'to work out'.

Montgomery was of unbelievable arrogance and went out of his way to belittle others from the vantage point of his own perceived greatness. He was good at set piece battles. After lengthy preparations and the allocation of massive superior forces, he won - surprise...

I'll grant both of them skill, but not genius. As characters, they were, each in their own way, just sorry twats.

von Marwitz
 

Michael Dorosh

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Montgomery was of unbelievable arrogance and went out of his way to belittle others from the vantage point of his own perceived greatness.
Confidence often seems like arrogance. It's possible to have both, of course. Montgomery was a professional and judged others according to his perception of their professional abilities. To be sure he was overbearing.

He was good at set piece battles. After lengthy preparations and the allocation of massive superior forces, he won - surprise...
World War II was a set piece battle. Rommel gets lots of press for his ability outfight larger formations, but he was a gambler - like Hitler - who kicked over one too many hornet's nests and paid the price. Usually it was his Italian allies who got left in the lurch. His "genius" is over-rated also.

As characters, they were, each in their own way, just sorry twats.
There's no call for this. Montgomery and Patton were both immensely popular with their men. Not all - many saw through their facades, some plain couldn't stand them. So it is with all men. But they inspired confidence in black times - post Kasserine for the Americans, just before El Alamein for the British - and turned battered forces into winners.
 

The Purist

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Not too sure about that. After Kasserine, Fredendall was certainly a victim of some rather bad PR put forward by a guy in Eisenhower's staff that couldn't stand him, Omar Bradley, though there was also some degree of tension within the Corps as Fredendall was a bit acerbic and had an especially terse relationship with MG Ward CDR 1st Arm Div.... <snip>...

Just like you said about Patton about not being too hasty or rose colored glasses viewed in one's assessment of a commander, let's give Fredendall a fair shake as well. The pendulum swings to both extremes.
Good evening Eagle. Pardon the delay in responding but I wanted to review my sources regarding Fredenhall and the Kasserine battles before making any reply. I will try to address your points in order but some may be combined to save space. Happy to look at any sources you may offer as well.

While US II Corps was given the open right flank of the allied line I would submit that the problems faced by Fredenhall and the events that led to his dismissal were largely of his own making.

As you note, Fredenhall was known to be acerbic but he was also a micro manager and according to Atkinson (An Army at Dawn) and Kelly (Meeting the Fox) an Anglophobe. His headquarters fostered an ill-concealed dislike of the British to the point where he and his officers openly mocked British accents. Further, Fredenhall was contemptuous of the French and even when their infantry died in their positions or French gunners stood by their pieces to the bitter end in support of US troops he gave them no credit.

Fredenhall also looked down on Eisenhower, Bradley, Truscott and others who were promoted over him as the US Army expanded and Marshall began appointing "his men". This is of particular note as Fredenhall was also a Marshall pick and despite his initial misgivings, Eisenhower accepted Fredenhall for command of II Corps. Initially satisfied, Fredenhall would almost immediately start eroding the faith of Eisenhower and the senior American staff officers.

Fredenhall's reported inability to delegate authority meant that he often went over the heads of his subordinate commanders directly to regimental commanders (as an example). Kelly (Meeting the Fox) notes two situations in the January fighting in the French sector where US troops were sent to back up ill-equipped French forces in the Eastern Dorsale range. When Robinett's CCB requested more infantry support, two battalions from the 1st Infantry Division were dispatched but they were not placed under Robinett's command. Instead they remained independent and subject Fredenhall's orders despite II Corps HQ being more than 70 miles (~130 kilometers) to the rear. To make matters worse, even though CCB was technically under command of the French Corps, Fredenhall kept his fingers in the pot, causing Robinett to complain he could not respond to orders from two equal headquarters.

Later, near the end of January when the situation was more stable, Eisenhower advised Fredenhall that, considering the situation and the problems with supplies, 1st Armored Division should be kept concentrated. Rather than combine the entire division as it arrived in II Corps' area Fredenhall ordered Gen Dan Ward (CO 1st AD) to break the division into four (4) combat commands (A through D) so they could be blooded in upcoming fighting. Besides committing the error of splitting his available armour into 'penny packets' in the face of an active enemy known for their tactical prowess, an error the British had made early in the war themselves, Fredenhall then retained command of all four Commands leaving Ward with just his headquarters and 'technical command' of formations he did not actually control.

The relations within US II Corps were not at all collegial with Fredenhall actively disliking Ward and making 'noisy' complaints about his subordinate, a rival for command of II Corps. As Rutherford (Kasserine: Baptism of Fire) notes, Gen. Ward was the antithesis of the combative and bigoted Fredenhall and Ward returned the feelings with "a quiet implacable contempt". Thus was the state of relations between II Corps and its main armoured force as the Kasserine battles approached.

The placement of US II Corps HQ raised more than a few eyebrows at the time and ever since. All sources I have note the headquarters was deployed in a deep ravine on a high plateau 70 miles (~130 kilometers) behind the front lines near Tebessa. The headquarters was bloated with some 69 staff officers alone and was protected by a full battalion of AA artillery. It is worth noting here that in 1940, even French corps headquarters, reliant almost solely on telephones, were not located this far to the rear. Fredenhall assigned an entire engineer regiment to dig a pair of long tunnels into the banks of the ravine despite being advised that the regiment had neither the equipment nor the experience in tunneling, still the corps commander insisted.

Fredenhall was prone to use unofficial code language when discussing orders over open radio networks. Unfortunately, these code words were known only to himself and appeared to be improvised on the spot. He often broke off using this code when he or his assistant became confused. Here are two examples:

(CCB 1st Armored during the fighting in the French sector in late January)

"Move your command, that is, the walking boys, pop guns, Baker's outfit and the outfit which is the reverse of Baker's outfit and the big fellow to M, which is due north of where you are now, as soon as possible. Have your boss report to the French gentleman whose name begins with J at a place that begins with D which is five grid squares to the left of M."

Robinett, his staff and a French liaison officer took some time to translate this cryptic message to mean that the command was to move to Maktar, that J stood for General Juin and that D stood for the French headquarters at Djerissa. Robinett was to note that it likely took any German listening in about an equal amount of time to decode the message as his own staff (Rutherford, pg 46).

Atkinson notes another example in mid January when US Gen Truscott at Eisenhower's HQ was in conversation with II Corps:

"I do not have enough MENUS,.... Relative to the force at Ousseltia, it has passed from the head ASH TRAY to a second ASH TRAY,.... Everything DAGWOOD of GARDEN has been withdrawn or collapsed. I cannot spare any CLOUDS.

Translation: He was short of infantry. A unit that had been serving under one French commander was now under another French commander. Forces north of Pichon had been routed. Fredenall had no extra battalions (Atkinson, pg 273).

In my own view, it is not all surprising that Fredenhall lost control of the situation as it developed from 14 February, 1943 onwards. While I agree that II Corps' position was not ideal, Fredenhall did not inspire confidence in his superiors or most subordinates and in the end it is the results that generals are judged by even if events transpired against those unfortunate enough to be defeated.
 
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Eagle4ty

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IMHO both Patton and Montgomery were intolerable pretentious pumping bumholes.

Patton was a plain ar**hole who outrageously called everybody a coward who would not jump at the opportunity to throw away his life to further Patton's scheme of his own greatness. I despise the likes of him. He might have had a knack to grab some opportunities but if his overbearing plans were checked by reality, he wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice his soldiers in an attempt to saving his ego in an attempt to force it 'to work out'.

Montgomery was of unbelievable arrogance and went out of his way to belittle others from the vantage point of his own perceived greatness. He was good at set piece battles. After lengthy preparations and the allocation of massive superior forces, he won - surprise...

I'll grant both of them skill, but not genius. As characters, they were, each in their own way, just sorry twats.

von Marwitz
Contrary to popular belief Patton did not sacrifice the lives of his soldiers as callously as one would imagine given his moniker of "Old Blood & Guts". In fact the Third Army incurred fewer casualties in NWE for the time spent in combat than any other American army; that distinction would go to Hodges' 1st Army and the same could be said of his handling of the 7th Army while in the Mediterranean as comparable to Commonwealth losses. True he did push his people hard to take every advantage of the poor position he found his enemy to be in and he was a risk taker where risks were deemed perhaps to be on the edge of possibilities but these were traits encountered in most successful leaders. He was the type of leader that demanded no more from his troops than he demanded of himself; the trouble being he demanded a lot from himself.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Contrary to popular belief Patton did not sacrifice the lives of his soldiers as callously as one would imagine given his moniker of "Old Blood & Guts". In fact the Third Army incurred fewer casualties in NWE for the time spent in combat than any other American army; that distinction would go to Hodges' 1st Army and the same could be said of his handling of the 7th Army while in the Mediterranean as comparable to Commonwealth losses. True he did push his people hard to take every advantage of the poor position he found his enemy to be in and he was a risk taker where risks were deemed perhaps to be on the edge of possibilities but these were traits encountered in most successful leaders. He was the type of leader that demanded no more from his troops than he demanded of himself; the trouble being he demanded a lot from himself.
My favourite Patton story was from when he was a junior officer and saw a man slacking off on PT. He screamed at the man: "run, damn you!"

A while later the man was paraded into Patton's office, where to his surprise, he received an apology. It occurred to Patton that he should have yelled "run, damn it" rather than cursing the man directly and felt honor-bound to make amends.

Patton did not help things - ever - with his own mouth. He's on record as advocating that officers getting killed was good for morale, for example.

Andy Rooney, if anyone remembers him from 60 Minutes, was a corresponndent for Stars and Stripes, and no coward - he flew one of the first B-17s missions over Germany, for example - he summed up his impression of Patton in four words - "he was an idiot." I don't think it was because of his combat record, but the perception that he left by his sometimes odd statements and his over the top personality which extended to his dress and deportment. He was unique, and I thought the movie summed up as much of that as it could. I agree with Gerry that it bordered on hagiography at times - Metz and Hammelburg were his biggest failings, and they are not in the film. It also invents a Monty-Patton rivalry which was probably one sided, if it existed at all. By D-Day in Normandy, Monty was two levels above Patton, and on 1 September 1944 reverted to Army Group commander, which was still one level above Patton. But the film shows some of the other aspects of his personality nicely. Generations of viewers will think he sounded like George C. Scott instead of Ross Perot, who the historical Patton actually sounded like....
 

The Purist

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....It also invents a Monty-Patton rivalry which was probably one sided, if it existed at all. By D-Day in Normandy, Monty was two levels above Patton, and on 1 September 1944 reverted to Army Group commander, which was still one level above Patton. But the film shows some of the other aspects of his personality nicely. Generations of viewers will think he sounded like George C. Scott instead of Ross Perot, who the historical Patton actually sounded like....
This is correct. Montgomery was more concerned with Bradley and pushing his desire to be named over all ground commander. Patton, Hodges, Simpson or Patch would not have entered his thoughts as rivals.
 

The Purist

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Contrary to popular belief Patton did not sacrifice the lives of his soldiers as callously as one would imagine given his moniker of "Old Blood & Guts". In fact the Third Army incurred fewer casualties in NWE for the time spent in combat than any other American army; that distinction would go to Hodges' 1st Army and the same could be said of his handling of the 7th Army while in the Mediterranean as comparable to Commonwealth losses. True he did push his people hard to take every advantage of the poor position he found his enemy to be in and he was a risk taker where risks were deemed perhaps to be on the edge of possibilities but these were traits encountered in most successful leaders. He was the type of leader that demanded no more from his troops than he demanded of himself; the trouble being he demanded a lot from himself.
With respect this not an apples to apples comparison.

Sicily

In Sicily the CW forces faced the bulk of the four available German divisions that would be deployed to the island from the beginning of the battle mainly because of where they landed, the distance to Messina and the nature of the terrain. By comparison, after an initial appearance by elements of the Herman Goering Division opposite the US beaches, the Germans began a retreat to the northeast (Messina) while 7th Army's drive was to the northwest (away from Messina) and Palermo, where the opposition was mainly Italian. To be sure, Patton was not thrilled with this mission and he was probably correct in pushing for an immediate drive northeast toward Messaina to overwhelm the German flank.

It was only when Patton turned east again that he ran into serious opposition against German blocking positions along the north coast. These troops were tasked with protecting the German flank as they retreated step by step towards Messina and evacuation. Like Montgomery, his advance was slowed drastically and losses increased. Patton executed a number of small flanking amphibious assaults to get past the German positions and, again, like the CW forces, his troops paid a heavy toll for every advance. While both US 7th and British 8th Armies 'landed' on the same day, they were not facing the same level of resistance throughout the campaign. The Germans fought a skillful retreat and the Sicilian campaign was a foretaste of the fighting to come in Italy.

It is probably safe to say that the allied armies did not perform particularly well in Sicily but then the US commanders were still learning and the British desert troops were now fighting in a more European environment rather than the open desert. They would also need to "re-learn' some basics. The Germans get at least a moral victory for holding up an entire army group with just four divisions and then conducting a successful seaborne evacuation of all their main forces in the face of an overwhelming enemy naval and air supremacy.

Northwest Europe.

The landings on US beaches on D-Day, the expansion of the US beachhead, the fighting in the bocage and the breakout in late July were all fought by US 1st Army. US 3rd Army was activated as the breakout was occurring and 1st Army divisions, along with newly arrived formations, were transferred to Patton's command as he exploited the breach and struck east towards Le Mans and into Brittany. While 3rd Army would face some stiff fights in Brittany it was not on par with the resistance faced by 1st Army in Normandy.

The dash across France as the allies crossed the Seine sees US 1st and 3rd Army's race for the German border but now 3rd Army is a flank guard for the main US thrust towards the Ruhr by Hodges army (as intended by Eisenhower and Bradley). As noted in above posts Patton's army is effectively halved in order to keep 1st Army advancing. While Patton is brought to a halt and will have to fight the Metz battles, Hodges is pushing over the German border and fighting the Aachen and Stolberg Corridor battles, followed by the Huertgen Forest and then Ardennes campaign where the bulk of US fighting, and casualties, fall on 1st Army.

Considering the nature of the fighting faced by US 1st Army fighting from D-Day to central Germany I am not surprised it suffered more casualties than 3rd Army. Hodges army did the heavy lifting for US forces in NW Europe, whereas 3rd Army, even in 1945, remained an important but still secondary flank guard.

This is not intended to denigrate Patton's record but post-war history and Patton's flare for attracting the press has given rise to a somewhat tilted view of the US Army's campaign in NW Europe. Hodges (1st Army) and Simpson (9th Army) were not all that concerned with the press and seemed more interested with running their armies.

Cheers.

Edit: It should come as no surprise that Patton was not at all pleased with his role as flank guard to Hodges and Simpson. He felt he should lead the way to Berlin - very "Montgomery" of him. :whistle:

<<Oh, no he didn't!!>> :eek:

<<Oh, yes he did!!>> :LOL:
 
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Old Noob

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After Andy Rooney criticized Patton, he received a letter. "Dear Mr. Rooney, my father would not have liked you either. Ruth Ellen Totten"
She was Patton's youngest daughter. {D'Este's biography of Patton}
 

Eagle4ty

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After Andy Rooney criticized Patton, he received a letter. "Dear Mr. Rooney, my father would not have liked you either. Ruth Ellen Totten"
She was Patton's youngest daughter. {D'Este's biography of Patton}
Yeah, and both Rooney & Atkinson were journalists ?:rolleyes::LOL: and not historians nor trained military personnel. (BTW however, I LOVED :love: Rick Atkinson's trilogy especially "Army At Dawn". [Being an old DF army puke though, I needed a thesaurus to plow through much of his work;)]
 

Eagle4ty

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This is correct. Montgomery was more concerned with Bradley and pushing his desire to be named over all ground commander. Patton, Hodges, Simpson or Patch would not have entered his thoughts as rivals.
Seemed like Hodges & Mont'y got along reasonably well though. IIRC Mont'y listened and agreed with Hodges' assessments in his reply to the "Bulge" situation even to the point of providing backup British units to locations selected by Hodges. All in all handling of the northern shoulder of the "Bulge" seemed to have come off rather smoothly with Mont'y being in overall command and Hodges being the man on the spot. He even reserved some special praise for Hodges' handling of the battle.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Seemed like Hodges & Mont'y got along reasonably well though. IIRC Mont'y listened and agreed with Hodges' assessments in his reply to the "Bulge" situation even to the point of providing backup British units to locations selected by Hodges. All in all handling of the northern shoulder of the "Bulge" seemed to have come off rather smoothly with Mont'y being in overall command and Hodges being the man on the spot. He even reserved some special praise for Hodges' handling of the battle.
I believe the friction came at the Rhine Crossings three months later when Monty, STILL holding operational control of 9th Army, assigned all their bridges to Dempsey....
 
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