Is ASL Ameritrash?

[Old Noob]

George S. Patton was a fighting general, maybe too much so. But who do you want leading II Corps after Kasserine, Patton or Fredenhall?
Just remember that all great generals have their adherents and detractors. {Just this humble American's opinion}
By the way, Patton is a good movie [just take some of the sequences with a grain of salt].

 

[Tuomo]

Again, the article adequately describes that Euro-games are mostly 'constructive' and not 'destructive' like war games. You build things: ... You explore things: ... You develop things:...

I object. In ASL, I build self-esteem by crushing my opponent. I explore new ways to humiliate him. And I develop an excellent black-and-white viewpoint of the world, wherein there are Winners and Losers and never the twain shall meet.

Euro Haters!

 

[Gordon]

 

[The Purist]

George S. Patton was a fighting general, maybe too much so. But who do you want leading II Corps after Kasserine, Patton or Fredenhall?
Just remember that all great generals have their adherents and detractors. {Just this humble American's opinion}
By the way, Patton is a good movie [just take some of the sequences with a grain of salt].

Oh, most definitely George Patton. Fredenhall was a general past his prime as were many British and Red Army commanders. As in all wars, the creme rises to the top with time and those who cannot keep up are "reassigned."

I suppose my view is that George Patton was a good enough general on his own merits,... his record does not require embellishment.

 

[von Marwitz]

I object. In ASL, I build self-esteem by crushing my opponent. I explore new ways to humiliate him. And I develop an excellent black-and-white viewpoint of the world, wherein there are Winners and Losers and never the twain shall meet.

Euro Haters!

Oh, my dear friend - it makes me so sad to hear that. So sad. But all hope is not lost. Maybe we can play the game together to heal your troubled mind. I propose to you to imagine that you follow the road through the bd5 woods. EC are Moderate with no Wind at start, the sun twinkles through the fresh green of the leaves, you deeply inhale the fragrance of the coniferous trees, and you enjoy perceiving the song of an early rare red cardinal. The warmth of delight will flood your heart and soul. And if you then dance your name, all will be well again and your mind will be at rest. ?

von Marwitz

 

[Gordon]

Oh, my dear friend - it makes me so sad to hear that. So sad. But all hope is not lost. Maybe we can play the game together to heal your troubled mind. I propose to you to imagine that you follow the road through the bd5 woods. EC are Moderate with no Wind at start, the sun twinkles through the fresh green of the leaves, you deeply inhale the fragrance of the coniferous trees, and you enjoy perceiving the song of an early rare red cardinal. The warmth of delight will flood your heart and soul. And if you then dance your name, all will be well again and your mind will be at rest. ?

von Marwitz

And THEN I get to call in the 400mm+ NOBA?!?

 

[von Marwitz]

And THEN I get to call in the 400mm+ NOBA?!?

No, my dear friend. Didn't you notice the funny little emoticon which I added to my edifying post? ?

At first, you will hear nothing as silent paws approach, then you might or might not hear some sweet purring.

AND THEN, BECAUSE YOU FAILED, FAILED MISERABLY TO FEED IT BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING THIS LOUSY GAME, THE CAT WILL UNLEASH ITS FULL FURY IN THE FORM OF FOBA, BREAKING THE NECK OF THAT RIDICULOUS RED CARDINAL SILENCING IT FOREVER AND RIPPING YOUR DAMNED BOARD 5 TO SHREDS!!!

That'll teach you.

von Marwitz

 

[Gordon]

?

 

[Tuomo]

Maybe we can play the game together to heal your troubled mind.

Already DOING that Euro thang!

 

[Chas]

Sadly, modern hollywood would portray Patton as the villain.

Gawd,... that was terribly flawed piece of Hollywood history mangling, starting with that opening scene.

George was an excellent general and was no doubt a very brave man but this film crossed the line to hero worship at times. If not for the "non-combat" bits where George is in trouble this film might have been irredeemable. Then again, expecting Hollywood to produce a historically accurate film about any historical person/event is a rare event.

The last one I can think of is maybe Tora! Tora! Tora!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Gawd,... that was terribly flawed piece of Hollywood history mangling, starting with that opening scene.

George was an excellent general and was no doubt a very brave man but this film crossed the line to hero worship at times. If not for the "non-combat" bits where George is in trouble this film might have been irredeemable. Then again, expecting Hollywood to produce a historically accurate film about any historical person/event is a rare event.

The last one I can think of is maybe Tora! Tora! Tora!

Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

I think you're way off base here. Bradley loathed Patton, and actually worked on getting scenes rewritten to present Patton in a negative light. George Scott played one scene (talking to General Truscott during the advance on Messina) literally laying down in protest.

There is an excellent book on the making of the film that discusses all this in detail and is highly recommended.

Patton is highly regarded among reviewers and audiences for walking the line between hagiography and unpatriotic. It's been accused of both, and everything in between. Which to me only speaks to how successful the film-makers were.

Francis Ford Coppola had a big hand in the script, which fascinates me still, given his opus on Vietnam a few years later.

 

[Ric of The LBC]

Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

I think you're way off base here. Bradley loathed Patton, and actually worked on getting scenes rewritten to present Patton in a negative light. George Scott played one scene (talking to General Truscott during the advance on Messina) literally laying down in protest.

There is an excellent book on the making of the film that discusses all this in detail and is highly recommended.

Patton is highly regarded among reviewers and audiences for walking the line between hagiography and unpatriotic. It's been accused of both, and everything in between. Which to me only speaks to how successful the film-makers were.

Francis Ford Coppola had a big hand in the script, which fascinates me still, given his opus on Vietnam a few years later.

Don't care about any of this. Was a great movie to watch as a kid. Usually was shown on TV after World Series games.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Don't care about any of this. Was a great movie to watch as a kid. Usually was shown on TV after World Series games.

It's a fascinating book, looks at people they considered casting - Rod Steiger said his one big regret was passing on this. Would have probably done better than his Napoleon.... But also looks at the fight to get it made. The family didn't want a movie at all, I believe Beatrice Patton had to pass away first. George S. Patton IV (himself a battalion commander in Vietnam and later also a general) apparently was moved to tears by it. Lots of good stuff in the book.

 

[Gordon]

Growing up for awhile I thought that was what German tanks actually looked like. ??

 

[Ric of The LBC]

Growing up for awhile I thought that was what German tanks actually looked like. ??

and Sherman's looked like Chaffees! (Battle of the Bulge)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Growing up for awhile I thought that was what German tanks actually looked like. ??

I remember watching a documentary on Eisenhower, probably early 1980s, after a steady diet of late night viewings of Patton, The Bridge at Remagen, Tobruk, etc. - and being amazed at what a Sherman tank actually looked like in newsreel footage. I'd seen plenty of them in Haunted Tank comics, but til then never actually saw one in a motion picture.

 

[The Purist]

Amazon.ca

www.amazon.ca

I think you're way off base here. Bradley loathed Patton, and actually worked on getting scenes rewritten to present Patton in a negative light. George Scott played one scene (talking to General Truscott during the advance on Messina) literally laying down in protest... <snip>...

That's the point. The movie does not explore Patton's failings beyond the slapping incident in Sicily that almost cost him his chance at fame. That one could not have been glossed over in any case if the film was to have any credibility at all. Neither Eisenhower nor Bradley were great fans of Patton but they did recognise his strengths and his weaknesses.

The reason Patton's army was the flank guard to US 1st Army's main drive on the Ruhr was mainly due to these perceived weaknesses where fighting would involve set piece battles. Patton's Army was reduced from 12 to 6 divisions in September to reinforce 1st Army as well as beginning to stand up 9th Army, also intended to drive on the Ruhr. It was expanded again as more divisions became available later in the year but Patton was never happy with being in the supporting role.

Patton's weak point was impatience. He believed that if you threw enough strength at a position you could break through and dash off like the cavalry. Unfortunately when those breakthroughs did not happen Patton seemed unable or unwilling to adjust his plan quickly enough to remedy the situation (he is not alone here). This was seen in northern Sicily in 43, Alsace in Sep-Oct 44 and the drive to relieve Bastogne. The last almost ruined one of the US Army's premier armoured divisions.

In the case of Bastogne, 4th AD was initially opposed by just two battalions of parachute infantry, their towed AT guns with just 12 assault guns for armoured support, yet it took four days to advance 10 miles with losses so heavy he had to attached two battalions from a nearby infantry division. The fighting around Bastogne after the link up was, perhaps, even more intense and American losses were extremely heavy with the advance to Houffalize proceeding at a painfully slow pace (from both directions).

Patton's orders "to drive like hell" were fine when the situation was fluid or a gap could be exploited. However, when the enemy had the means to resist and tactical reserves were at hand, uninspired frontal assaults invariably led to high losses and little ground gained. It was not unlike the problems 1st Army faced in breaking out of the bocage in Normandy. Patton was absent from that fighting, which may have been instructional. As 3rd Army stood up it absorbed 1st Army divisions after the breakthrough had been achieved.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Oh, most definitely George Patton. Fredenhall was a general past his prime as were many British and Red Army commanders. As in all wars, the creme rises to the top with time and those who cannot keep up are "reassigned."
...

Not too sure about that. After Kasserine, Fredendall was certainly a victim of some rather bad PR put forward by a guy in Eisenhower's staff that couldn't stand him, Omar Bradley, though there was also some degree of tension within the Corps as Fredendall was a bit acerbic and had an especially terse relationship with MG Ward CDR 1st Arm Div. Fredendall had gained a reputation as a good organizer and had handled his Corps with aggressiveness during stateside maneuvers so his potential was as good or as poor as most unknown entities at that time. Other factors that had a bearing on his performance were the overall Allied command structure, expected courses of actions that existed at the time, and resultant displacement of troops. .

1st Army was commanded by LtG Anderson (British) that had determined his British forces in the north would make the crucial advance on Tunis, had minimal faith in American's fighting ability, was a micro-manager to his subordinate Corps Commanders, and did not get along well with Fredendall. Eisenhower meanwhile had just previously stripped most of II Corps staff officers to fill out his HQ, including Gen Clark (G3-Planning), his G2 (Intel) and several other critical posts as his HQ had recently been formed and expanded. On the eve of the battle Fredendall had known much of his staff for little less than a couple of weeks. Not only was Fredendall presented with these command staff difficulties but Anderson had recently detached two combat commands of the 1st Arm Div to bolster the French and act as a reserve in the north while at the same time requiring 1st ID to leave a RCT in the Oran sector to guard against "?" as well as personally directing Gen Ryder's 34th ID to forward deploy limited forces (two Bns) in the Faid Pass area, though the order was received at division with Fredendall's signature to his everlasting regret. When Fredendall went to make a protest, he was severely admonished by Bradley to not upset Allied cooperation and relations but comply with the directives as the U.S. position was to be merely a supporting action for the British main thrust anyway. So concerned by the stripping away at his assets was Fredendall that he had his engineers kept busy digging in the Corps HQ and improving supply routes so as not to lose them the Anderson. With much of the rest of the 1st ID deployed by directive in reserve or further to the north backing/supporting the French, II Corps was left with little more than a Division and a half to defend the stretched and vulnerable line from El Guettar to the Sidi-Bou-Sid/Faid area. Little wonder that an experienced and dangerous foe took advantage of these shortcomings in the Battle of Kasserine Pass. Somebody was going to have to pay the price for losing face in Tunisia and it was Fredendall (Patton) and Ward (Harmon).

Just like you said about Patton about not being too hasty or rose colored glasses viewed in one's assessment of a commander, let's give Fredendall a fair shake as well. The pendulum swings to both extremes.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

put forward by a guy in Eisenhower's staff that couldn't stand him, Omar Bradley,

Bradley hated Patton and Montgomery too. I am wondering if he got along with anyone....

 

[Gamer72]

Bradley hated Patton and Montgomery too. I am wondering if he got along with anyone....

Most every American general seems to have hated Montgomery, one of our finest generals. An interesting, though ultimately pointless, “what if ?” : what if Montgomery’s and Slim’s appointments had been reversed ? Perhaps a topic for another thread, as this one started off about Ameritrash ?