Pitman
Forum Guru
Am I correct in assuming that BFP is not offering an upgrade kit for owners of the original Into the Rubble product? I cannot find one mentioned on the BFP website.
Into the Rubble 2 update kit?
- Thread starter Pitman
- Start date
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
I think your assumption is correct. Though I believe that BFP boards are now available separately as parts. You would need to doublecheck if this applies for all BFP boards.
von Marwitz
von Marwitz
rreinesch
Elder Member
We aren't offering a package to update ITR1 to ITR2, because frankly the difference between an update package an the final full product are minimal. We are already offering sticky errata that updates the original ITR1 scenarios to be aligned with those in ITR2. Any update package would offer boards B (errata fix), DW-7, rubble overlays, rules, counters, and additional scenarios. All that's left is board A and the original 8 scenarios that wouldn't be included. It economically didn't make sense.
Pitman
Forum Guru
An update could include the new board, the counters, and the additional scenarios. The rubble overlays and the rules could be downloaded. I don't know what "errata" board b had, but most board "errata" can be fixed with a downloadable overlay, too.
As it is, you are basically making people buy a lot of stuff all over again...
As it is, you are basically making people buy a lot of stuff all over again...
Pitman
Forum Guru
Btw, if you release "errata boards" in the future, you need to change the board numbers to reflect it, like BFP A.1 or something; as is, the only way to tell which version of the board one is looking at is to know in advance that there is errata and where it is and to visually compare the board in front of you with the other board.
I have no idea what this "errata" is. I suppose I could go dig the ITR boards up and do a hex-by-hex comparison, but that seems like a lot of work. The ITR errata sheet on the BFP website doesn't mention any map errata at all, either.
I have no idea what this "errata" is. I suppose I could go dig the ITR boards up and do a hex-by-hex comparison, but that seems like a lot of work. The ITR errata sheet on the BFP website doesn't mention any map errata at all, either.
Misterhawk
Member
They are not making anyone do anything. If you want the new edition, buy it. If you don't, don't. It seems easy enough to do all that until you actually have to do it and organize the printing and sales, etc..
But I agree that if the board has changes it should be noted. God knows it took me forever to figure out which LFT2 board was the original and which was the reprint.
Pitman
Forum Guru
Of course they are making people re-buy ITR components and scenarios in order to get the new stuff.
As for the other comment, wargame companies often make upgrade kits available. Even Critical Hit has often done this.
esprcorn
Member
Pittman, why are you bringing this up again. IT's been discussed ad naseum. If you must, write your scathing opinion on your blog for an otherwise exceptional product.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
In this case, I do not think so despite my personal tendency to be rather picky about such things.
As has been stated by Rick, the difference between the products is minor. So with the boards being available separately and the errata too, the counters probably not exactly necessary to play the scenarios (despite some of them are nice to have), it basically boils down to 8 scenarios. With maybe 8000+ out there.
If you don't have ITR1, then ITR2 is a good opportunity to close the the gap.
If you do have ITR1 and do not want to invest funds for ITR2, the latter can be passed up very easily without anything of consequence missing for the future 'system-wise' if you want to be able to play all of what BFP has to offer besides those 8 scenarios.
So the "pressure" to buy this is much less than for any AP, WO Bonus Pack in comparison IMHO.
The "pressure" is more comparable to "having to buy" a Special Ops by MMP that held a board (that became available separately soon after publication) and two or three scenarios and a such another example of a product that can be passed up easily (for which I do credit MMP).
von Marwitz
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Nor have I. But *probably* I would not even have noticed it one way or the other if I played a scenario on either version of the board.
If there is a map erratum, of course, it would make sense to point it out.
von Marwitz
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
To a certain extent, you are right - no one is making anyone do anything. But it does make a difference, if ownership of a product is required to keep your game-components complete that will see use in future releases (like Chapter H notes, geo-boards, etc.) or if it is about missing out on a couple of scenarios, that has no effect on the 'integrity' (unfitting word, I know) of the game-system. My argument is not worded well - my apologies - but I hope that you understand what I mean.
von Marwitz
rreinesch
Elder Member
The errata on BFP B was related to the addition of the road entering from T2 into the building in U2. This allowed us to eliminate some wording in the ITR rules to originally account for its absence, but would otherwise not impact ITR1.
I already had ITR so I would have preferred ITR2 to be the difference between ITR and what has since come out as ITR2. That would have necessitated a reprint of the original ITR as it had been out of print for some time. That reprint would have been a small run, given how many already had ITR and I don't think a small run of ITR and a large run of ITR2 (new bits only) would have been as good price wise as a combined ITR2.
While Pitman has a point about other companies producing upgrade kits for games, components wise they usually contain a smallish fraction of the original. An upgrade ITR2 would contain 2 boards, 12 scenarios, counters vs 2 boards, 8 scenarios and overlays, IE roughly the same as the original. As I don't like 'patched' maps (bought a pair of 42 to replace the wandering wall), an update kit that would have satisfied me would have had 3 maps. In the end I have 1 map, overlays and 7 scenarios as duplicates with 1 corrected scenario, 1 corrected board, 12 new scenarios and 2 new boards.
So for me, not ideal, but still good enough for me to buy 2 copies of ITR2.
While Pitman has a point about other companies producing upgrade kits for games, components wise they usually contain a smallish fraction of the original. An upgrade ITR2 would contain 2 boards, 12 scenarios, counters vs 2 boards, 8 scenarios and overlays, IE roughly the same as the original. As I don't like 'patched' maps (bought a pair of 42 to replace the wandering wall), an update kit that would have satisfied me would have had 3 maps. In the end I have 1 map, overlays and 7 scenarios as duplicates with 1 corrected scenario, 1 corrected board, 12 new scenarios and 2 new boards.
So for me, not ideal, but still good enough for me to buy 2 copies of ITR2.
Pitman
Forum Guru
I have no idea whether it has been brought up before or not. I asked the question because I wanted to confirm, for my website entry, that there was no upgrade kit available, rather than simply assuming it.
Pitman
Forum Guru
This is not accurate. First of all, the difference between the products is major. ITR2 includes two half-countersheets, two boards, a page of overlays, and 12 scenarios that ITR does not have. In no way can that be considered minor.
It is also not possible for an ASLer who plays BFP products to simply "pass this by," as BFP routinely uses counters, boards, etc., from previous products in current/future products, so anybody who does not get ITR2 will sooner or later find themselves unable to play other BFP scenarios as well.
Moreover, you completely ignore the completist OCD that a huge numbers of ASLers have.
Pitman
Forum Guru
So if I read this right, the wording remains in the original ITR rules and thus owners of the ITR rules and the original BFP B do not need the new BFP B? Or have I got it wrong?
esprcorn
Member
I think it's unreasonable to expect a third party producer to be responsible for this completist OCD nature. They only need to do what's best for their company. So long as they deliver top quality product, I have no complaints. And they consistently do.
Pitman
Forum Guru
Most companies find that most of the time what is best for them is not pissing off customers and by providing the maximum in convenience and value for price. Asking people to re-buy things they already own in order to get some new things is neither particularly convenient nor is it value for price.
Pitman
Forum Guru
By the way, BFP may want to consider making a downloadable play aid on its site that takes the city center area of the DW-7 boards and expands it, or recreates it for different levels, because those 3-level buildings can create some intense counter crush and players might find such a play aid helpful for some scenarios.
I'm actually trying to think of a similar industry where a company updates or upgrades it product and just sells the items necessary to bring the older product up to date. I mean I'm sure it happens in some industries but it's not exactly common. I mean when was the original ITR released? It's not like they released it two years ago and now they're making you buy a new one. As was stated above, if you don't find the value, you're not forced to update it to use it. Why put the onus on the company to continue to support an older product? Sell the original for whatever the market will bear on eBay or BGG and purchase the new one using the proceeds. It's not that I would be opposed to companies offering upgrade parts only, but I think after a certain amount of time it shouldn't be expected and it may not be financially viable for that company to do so.