Interpretation of "OR"

[George Kelln]

Ok ASL Hive mind here's language question regarding "or" and it's misunderstanding, misinterpretation: In FT 157 The Lost Colum the

VICTORY CONDITIONS state: The Germans win at game end if there are no Good Order Canadian MMC or Mobile AFV with functionning MA on level 3 hill hexes, provided at least one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functionning MA remains on board.

Do the Germans lose:

1. If the Canadian have a Good Order MMC and a Mobile AFV with functioning MA on Level 3 hill hex
2. If Canadians have a Good Order MMC on a Level 3 hill hex
3. If Canadian have a a Mobile AFV with functioning MA on a Level 3 hill hex

 

[A_T_Great]

Ok ASL Hive mind here's language question regarding "or" and it's misunderstanding, misinterpretation: In FT 157 The Lost Colum the

VICTORY CONDITIONS state: The Germans win at game end if there are no Good Order Canadian MMC or Mobile AFV with functionning MA on level 3 hill hexes, provided at least one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functionning MA remains on board.

Do the Germans lose:

1. If the Canadian have a Good Order MMC and a Mobile AFV with functioning MA on Level 3 hill hex
2. If Canadians have a Good Order MMC on a Level 3 hill hex
3. If Canadian have a a Mobile AFV with functioning MA on a Level 3 hill hex

All three.

 

[Robin Reeve]

+1

 

[Eagle4ty]

Ok ASL Hive mind here's language question regarding "or" and it's misunderstanding, misinterpretation: In FT 157 The Lost Colum the

VICTORY CONDITIONS state: The Germans win at game end if there are no Good Order Canadian MMC or Mobile AFV with functionning MA on level 3 hill hexes, provided at least one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functionning MA remains on board.

Do the Germans lose:

1. If the Canadian have a Good Order MMC and a Mobile AFV with functioning MA on Level 3 hill hex
2. If Canadians have a Good Order MMC on a Level 3 hill hex
3. If Canadian have a a Mobile AFV with functioning MA on a Level 3 hill hex

#2 is applicable only if there is at least one mobile non-Recalled German AFV with functioning MA remaining anywhere on board. #1 & #3 are accurate.

 

[Robin Reeve]

The mobile AFV is not mandatory if an MMC does the job

 

[von Marwitz]

Just for those interested - here is a map preview of that scenario:

GRENADIER´18: ASL Tournament, Germany, 31.10.-04.11.2018

Title says it all. Please go visit aslgermany for further information

www.gamesquad.com

von Marwitz

 

[dwardzala]

Yeah, I don't understand the point of the last part of the VC "provided at least one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functioning MA remains on board. " If there are no mobile, non-Recalled AFV with functioning armament on-board, there are no AFV which can prevent the German victory. I think this is a case of extraneous language trying to clarify the "or" and actually making the VC more confusing.

I blame the (rules) lawyers.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The last just says the Canadians win if there is not at least ""one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functionning MA remains on board" - then the first part of the VC is irrelevant.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Just for those interested - here is a map preview of that scenario:

GRENADIER´18: ASL Tournament, Germany, 31.10.-04.11.2018

Title says it all. Please go visit aslgermany for further information

www.gamesquad.com

von Marwitz

Here is the actual battlefield:

https://www.project44.ca/intelblog/2019/8/6/worthington-force-from-the-air?fbclid=IwAR2JZBvJEDlovj9azZaYq9rzj-G28t2XXBlWb7lMY0g5dd8jjt_ldmRgrh8

Very large aerial photos and a discussion by Mike Bechthold. Here's the last stand of the regiment - white squares in the farmyard are aerial recognition panels.

 

[SSlunt]

VICTORY CONDITIONS state: The Germans win at game end if there are no Good Order Canadian MMC or Mobile AFV with functionning MA on level 3 hill hexes, provided at least one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functionning MA remains on board.

Do the Germans lose:

1. If the Canadian have a Good Order MMC and a Mobile AFV with functioning MA on Level 3 hill hex
2. If Canadians have a Good Order MMC on a Level 3 hill hex
3. If Canadian have a a Mobile AFV with functioning MA on a Level 3 hill hex

The question was asked from the wrong perspective.
Do the Germans Win if:

1. If the Canadian do not have a Moble AFV with functioning MA on a Level 3 hill hex
2. If the Canadian do not have a Good Order MMC

Do the Canadians win Only if the they have Both a Mobile AFV.. AND a good order MMC

In most other victory conditions when it refers to either or both the wording is and/or

 

[Eagle4ty]

The mobile AFV is not mandatory if an MMC does the job

The 1st part of the sentence is a single thought process and presented as such offering two choices to attain the VC. The part after the comma is an additional qualifier stating that "...provided at least one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functioning MA remains on board." The use of the word provided here indicates this option must be attained regardless of meeting either of the two previous conditions. Now I agree it is a bit awkward to include it in this context since attaining the second condition of having a " ...Mobile AFV with functioning MA on level 3 hill hexes" would automatically entail meeting the conditional qualifier however it is what it is.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The 1st part of the sentence is a single thought process and presented as such offering two choices to attain the VC. The part after the comma is an additional qualifier stating that "...provided at least one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functioning MA remains on board." The use of the word provided here indicates this option must be attained regardless of meeting either of the two previous conditions. Now I agree it is a bit awkward to include it in this context since attaining the second condition of having a " ...Mobile AFV with functioning MA on level 3 hill hexes" would automatically entail meeting the conditional qualifier however it is what it is.

I don't think there is any real way to know if that comma separates the last clause from the last of the two options, or both options. I would think if it applied regardless, it would have either come first, or been an entirely new sentence.

 

[dwardzala]

@Eagle4ty has it right. The Germans must have a mobile, non-recalled AFV with functioning main armament on the board to even consider the other two conditions. It is worded poorly. A better wording would be:
The Germans win at Game End if they have at least one mobile, non-recalled AFV with functioning main armament on the board and the there are no good order Canadian MMCs nor Canadian mobile, non-recalled AFV with functioning main armament on any level 3 hill hexes.

YMMV.

 

[SSlunt]

This is from the scenario FT157 - The Lost Column - design by Bertrand Cuillou-Keredan - If any one knows him could he be asked?

 

[Stewart]

The perspective should be from the CANADIAN point of view..
They have to be the ones to actually be satisfying any victory condition.
The Canadians NEED to have MMC OR a mobile AFV on the hill.
The Germans Have to do NOTHING to win the game.

The Germans win by the Canadians NOT doing either....The Germans can simply leave the map and still win.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The Germans Have to do NOTHING to win the game.

The Germans win by the Canadians NOT doing either....The Germans can simply leave the map and still win.

I the Germans leave the map there won't be "one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functioning MA remains on board " - and the Canadians will win.

 

[Stewart]

I the Germans leave the map there won't be "one mobile, non-Recalled German AFV with functioning MA remains on board " - and the Canadians will win.

Sure....but my point is still made sans that miscue...
the onus is on the Canadian NOT the German....even moreso with that stipulation...if the Canadian pursues the Germans that's still an action THEY must take...

 

[Stewart]

@Eagle4ty has it right. The Germans must have a mobile, non-recalled AFV with functioning main armament on the board to even consider the other two conditions. It is worded poorly. A better wording would be:
The Germans win at Game End if they have at least one mobile, non-recalled AFV with functioning main armament on the board and the there are no good order Canadian MMCs nor Canadian mobile, non-recalled AFV with functioning main armament on any level 3 hill hexes.

YMMV.

But that's not what the VC say.
The NOR implies BOTH must be satisfied....
Neither MMC nor AFV.
and the OR doesn't need both to be satisfied.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Sure....but my point is still made sans that miscue...
the onus is on the Canadian NOT the German....even moreso with that stipulation...if the Canadian pursues the Germans that's still an action THEY must take...

Could be, but given the VC text - my assumption (without having seen the actual scenario/set-up-instructions) is that the Canadians are already in place on the hill to fulfill the VC, and that the Germans needs to kick them out.

If that is the case then I'd the onus is on the Germans. Now if the Canadians are indeed not on the hill the begin with, then they do have to do something.

 

[von Marwitz]

This is from the scenario FT157 - The Lost Column - design by Bertrand Cuillou-Keredan - If any one knows him could he be asked?

Post the question in the LFT section of this forum?

von Marwitz