Interesting debate at the Scenario Depot II

[Thomm]

Don't pretend you're capable of irony, Thomm. We know you too well.

I wish you would stop those pointless personal attacks.

Best regards,
Thomm

 

[Quellist]

Fact is, that BFC recovered from the perhaps worst possible start for CMx2, they seem to have enough stamina to sit out enormous deadline slips while expanding at the same time (second programmer) and they are in the process of releasing three games in a few months timeframe, one of them having been produced by a partner.

Well, MadMatt is gone so that is zero-sum (i.e. no expansion) in personnel if not in salary dollars.

How well they are doing remains to be seen, they had 3 excellent games that seems to be hits judging from the outside and they had a booming producer business, personally I believe that profits from that era would be able to sustain a limping business for quite some time.

 

[Mad Russian]

Not that I think he is, but if I said George Mc was one of the worst "CM designers of all time", just out of curiosity, how would you "prove" me wrong?

Just my opinion. You're welcome to yours.

Bearing in mind that the only place such things are 'rated' is on one fan site - that doesn't rate the 'official' release disc scenarios. Which ostensibly are the 'professional' ones.

I see you found your humor chip again. You really want to tell me that some of the scenarios that you've seen put on 'official' release disks were better than some of those produced by the unofficial scenario designers for most any game out there?

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Mad Russian]

Not sure that BFC goes as CM goes. How would we know what percentage of sales CM makes for them?

In the end, I don't care. I want them to be successful because that makes my hobby stronger and offers me more gaming options.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Elvis]

Well, MadMatt is gone so that is zero-sum (i.e. no expansion) in personnel if not in salary dollars.

Actually Cassio/Webwing was added as a full time employee at around (maybe slightly after)the time Matt left. So the second programer is actually an addition not a zero-sum addition.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

You really want to tell me that some of the scenarios that you've seen put on 'official' release disks were better than some of those produced by the unofficial scenario designers for most any game out there?

I think you see my point exactly; in fact you stated it - it's all in the eye of the beholder. Actually, the guys designing for the release discs are at a disadvantage in that, by definition, they get less time than anyone, bar none, to "play with" the game and the editor. So over time, the "unofficial" authors have a huge advantage in that they can see what works, what doesn't, what people want, analyze trends, etc. So if they see that people really like those dreaded "Wittman" scenarios, a "successful" designer could make a name for himself designing nothing but.

I don't think George Mc did that either - i.e. pander; I think based on what I saw of him - and I worked on the original CM:SF design team - that he has an enormous amount of innate talent. I say this as someone who has published a successful book on the subject of tactical wargame scenario design and whose scenarios were selected for three different Combat Mission release discs - two "special editions" and one initial release.

As you noted, none of which makes my opinion any more or less right or wrong than anyone else's. I would just never go on a limb and attempt to rank scenario authors. Recognize talent, sure. Elevate one above another - never saw the point of that cult of personality stuff.

 

[dalem]

Well, yes.

Although this is not quite what you wrote above, i.e., nothing in absolute terms.

Best regards,
Thomm

What is it with you CMSF testers and boosters and your abhorrance of normal comparative terms? It's very silly and does not serve to distract from the reality of CMSF's painful and counterproductive stillbirth.

-dale

 

[Elvis]

I say this as someone who has published a successful book on the subject of tactical wargame scenario design a

Successful? Prove it

(sorry...couldn't resist..it was just laying there witing to be picked up.)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Successful? Prove it

(sorry...couldn't resist..it was just laying there witing to be picked up.)

It's rated in the top 600, sales-wise, of the tens of thousands of titles at lulu.com; which speaks to some modicum of commercial success. It has at the least 'exceeded' my expectations. :laugh:

It's also been reviewed positively in a couple of places - View from the Trenches, for example, by Ian Daglish - whose name should be familiar.

 

[dalem]

Oh, I guess that has been made quite clear here over the years.

The problem is that you wanting something does not make BFC stay in business. Perhaps it is the guys playing alone in the basement that pay the bills.

Fact is, that BFC recovered from the perhaps worst possible start for CMx2, they seem to have enough stamina to sit out enormous deadline slips while expanding at the same time (second programmer) and they are in the process of releasing three games in a few months timeframe, one of them having been produced by a partner.

Seems that they are doing something right.

Best regards,
Thomm

Wow, that's a LOT of whistling by a LOT of graveyards.

-dale

 

[Elvis]

What is it with you CMSF testers and boosters and your abhorrance of normal comparative terms? It's very silly and does not serve to distract from the reality of CMSF's painful and counterproductive stillbirth.

-dale

It is probably because when someone says "nobody plays it" or something like that when you have 6 PBEM games going with people who are both testers and non-testers hearing "no one plays it" sounds like ********. And that has absolutely zero to with and kind of "painful and counterproductive stillbirth". One has nothing to do with the other.

EDIT: Cleaned up beer induced typos

Oh well, couple of beers and and an Eagles win and I start yapping. Probably not one of my better ideas.

 

[Elvis]

It's rated in the top 600, sales-wise, of the tens of thousands of titles at lulu.com; which speaks to some modicum of commercial success. It has at the least 'exceeded' my expectations. :laugh:

It's also been reviewed positively in a couple of places - View from the Trenches, for example, by Ian Daglish - whose name should be familiar.

Yeah but it is #3,515,326 on Amazons best seller rank list. If that is a success then BFCs CMSF ranking of #4,848 is a block buster.

(Again sorry. Hard to resist)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Yeah but it is #3,515,326 on Amazons best seller rank list. If that is a success then BFCs CMSF ranking of #4,848 is a block buster.

(Again sorry. Hard to resist)

If you define success as selling through Amazon, then it is not a success.

I am not the one who listed it at amazon.

Out of curiosity, though, how does it stack up to "all the other" tactical wargame scenario design guides on amazon? :whist: Surely that is a better indicator of success?

 

[KG_Jag]

Yeah but it is #3,515,326 on Amazons best seller rank list. If that is a success then BFCs CMSF ranking of #4,848 is a block buster.

(Again sorry. Hard to resist)

What do expect from a one writer shop?!

 

[Mad Russian]

I think you see my point exactly; in fact you stated it - it's all in the eye of the beholder. Actually, the guys designing for the release discs are at a disadvantage in that, by definition, they get less time than anyone, bar none, to "play with" the game and the editor.

You being both a designer and having been on beta teams understand that. Few others do. So, if the guys that put the 'official' scenarios out make good ones they are outstanding in their art.

I don't think George Mc did that either - i.e. pander; I think based on what I saw of him - and I worked on the original CM:SF design team - that he has an enormous amount of innate talent. I say this as someone who has published a successful book on the subject of tactical wargame scenario design and whose scenarios were selected for three different Combat Mission release discs - two "special editions" and one initial release.

Ah, I see it's time for you to post your resume. I beat you to it by a few weeks.

As you noted, none of which makes my opinion any more or less right or wrong than anyone else's. I would just never go on a limb and attempt to rank scenario authors. Recognize talent, sure. Elevate one above another - never saw the point of that cult of personality stuff.

I have groups of designers that I think are really talented. Somewhat like NFL quarterbacks. As a group they are obviously talented. Some are better over the course of their careers than others. Then there is Peyton Manning.

I think the scenario designers in our community are the same to some extent. I'm just not sure we have a Peyton Manning. But there are those that stand out. I don't mind naming those when they come up.

Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I think the scenario designers in our community are the same to some extent. I'm just not sure we have a Peyton Manning. But there are those that stand out. I don't mind naming those when they come up.

This is our only real disagreement. I think we've had dozens of Peyton Mannings whereas you only see a handful. I'd hate to start naming them because I'm positive I'd exclude lots of fellows who should be included. My threshold for being impressed may be lower than others. Again, it's all beholder stuff.

 

[dalem]

I'll throw in my "most scenarios are shite" just to liven things up.

-dale

 

[Mad Russian]

I'll throw in my "most scenarios are shite" just to liven things up.

-dale

You do know we don't care what you think right? :shock:
Good Hunting.

MR

 

[dalem]

Sure. But opinions are fun.

La-la-la la-la-la-la!
La-la-la la-la-la-laaaa!

(Sorry, just watched Kick Ass this week.)

-dale

 

[Quellist]

Actually Cassio/Webwing was added as a full time employee at around (maybe slightly after)the time Matt left. So the second programer is actually an addition not a zero-sum addition.

Ahh, my apologies. I don't follow BFC closely enough to keep track of the 3d-artists, but that's no excuse for spreading bad information. Thank you for setting me straight.