Intensive Fire with some complications

MajorDomo

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OK, in the picture below, it is the Defensive Final Fire Phase for the French player (25LL gun). The gun has already destroyed the AFV in CC9 with Defensive First Fire and kept ROF, but with its CA fixed. The PZIB then bypassed the restricted CA 25LL, hoping to tie it up.
upload_2018-1-29_18-20-17.png

My opponent claimed that when the Defensive Fire Phase came, he could fire the 25LL at the Motion AFV bypassing the gun's hex as the restricted CA leaves and then fire into your same hex does not require any CA changes. The following would be the To Hit DRMs - +2 fire within hex, +2 AFV motion, +1 small target.

I thought that the gun's CA needs to be turn to include the bypassed hexside, but could not find any evidence to back up my belief {which would have added +4 for the fast gun's two hex pivot).

Your Thoughts?

Thanks,
Rich
 
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Mr Incredible

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I think it needs to turn to cover the hexside the vehicle enters when firing in the MPh, but not the DFPh.

However, case E is doubled if firing from woods/building/rubble.

Sort of a quasi CA change mod in trying to get the target in your sights at close range.
 

Doug Kirk

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I believe your opponent is correct the way the rules are written. Silly rule IMHO.
 

Eagle4ty

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Yes, C5.51 does seem to rule out a mandatory Case A CA change to bring the CA of the ATG towards the bypassing vehicle in that case, but is probably just a game mechanic(?). Seems very counter-intuitive, but certainly not the only rule presented thusly.
 

Doug Leslie

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Yes, C5.51 does seem to rule out a mandatory Case A CA change to bring the CA of the ATG towards the bypassing vehicle in that case, but is probably just a game mechanic(?). Seems very counter-intuitive, but certainly not the only rule presented thusly.
I'm not too sure about that. C5.51 concludes with an exception for bypassing vehicles. It refers to a rule that seems primarily concerned with a vehicle's CA but it has to be at least arguable that the exception relates to guns firing at vehicles in bypass?
 

aneil1234

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Doug

I think that that exception for C5 .51 is if the bypassing vehicle is firing, not a defender firing at the bypassing vehicle. the exception is for the last line in my opinion. The part that states "this is the only instance where case A DRM are applicable to Case E DRM"
the rule it's referring to is D2 .321. And that is referring to the bypassing vehicle changing covered arc.
People with a better understanding of this may have to add more but that's my understanding of it

If you change a covered arc during the movement phase, you pay case A penalty. if you wait to the defensive fire phase. You don't :)
in that exception is for a VBM vehicle that is changing its covered arc.
 

CrashBoom88

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Doug

I think that that exception for C5 .51 is if the bypassing vehicle is firing, not a defender firing at the bypassing vehicle. the exception is for the last line in my opinion. The part that states "this is the only instance where case A DRM are applicable to Case E DRM"
the rule it's referring to is D2 .321. And that is referring to the bypassing vehicle changing covered arc.
People with a better understanding of this may have to add more but that's my understanding of it
D2.321 is all about the fire of a bypassing vehicle so I think you are on the mark. Indeed, D2.321 refers not to a CA, but exclusively to a bypassing vehicle's TCA. No TCA, no applicability of the exception, yes?
 

Doug Leslie

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I think that the key here is the semi-colon between "VBM" and D2.321 in the "exception" reference. This is effectively creating two exceptions: firstly when firing at a vehicle in bypass and secondly when a vehicle in bypass is firing through its side facing. If the only exception were the second one, the inclusion of "VBM" would be superfluous as it would suffice simply to give the rule reference. D2.37 makes it clear that all fire against a bypassing vehicle has to be aimed at its CAFP and it makes no sense to suggest that a gun can aim at the CAFP while pointing in the opposite direction. Clearly the compiler of this guide has a similar view.
http://www.texas-asl.com/download/ASL_CA.pdf

Check the section headed "When Case A To-Hit Penalties Apply".
 

klasmalmstrom

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...If the only exception were the second one, the inclusion of "VBM" would be superfluous as it would suffice simply to give the rule reference.
It is common in the ASL rules to given both a text and a rules-reference - so there is only one exception.

See also e.g., rule C5.6:
"...An Intensive Firing Gun automatically gains one (and only one [EXC: OVR Prevention; 5.64]) additional shot during that Player Turn...."

I.e., there is a text, and then a rules-reference that "belongs" to that text.
 

Ed Caswell

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I read Rule C5.51 as making it clear there is no CA change because this is not First Fire but rather the Defensive Final Fire Phase. The Rule C3.2 Example also makes it clear the bypassing vehicle and the firing Gun are in the same hex. Rule D2.321 does not come into play because it speaks to a bypass vehicle and said vehicle's CA when firing. Thus, there is no CA change/DRM, only the +2 (doubled for Gun in the building) DRM for the shot.
 

Doug Leslie

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I read Rule C5.51 as making it clear there is no CA change because this is not First Fire but rather the Defensive Final Fire Phase. The Rule C3.2 Example also makes it clear the bypassing vehicle and the firing Gun are in the same hex. Rule D2.321 does not come into play because it speaks to a bypass vehicle and said vehicle's CA when firing. Thus, there is no CA change/DRM, only the +2 (doubled for Gun in the building) DRM for the shot.
I think that this is correct according to the rules as stated. Presumably the logic is that the gun is sufficiently penalised by the doubling of Case E? Still seems very counter intuitive though!
 
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