Intensive Fire in Defensive Fire

[dwardzala]

Situation has come up in a game of mine (HI Jim):

Panther fires MA in Defensive Fire Phase (not MPh) and is marked with a Final Fire marker. Said panther wants to rotate his turret and fire MA on another target 2 or more hexes away using intensive fire.

Is this a valid shot?

Applicable rules references that I have found: A8.41, C5.6 and C2.241.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Hey Dave,
This has been discussed here a lot so you might not get many answers on the subject. I pulled up a couple of threads from the past on the topic here for you. It is such a confusing topic that many, including me, are confused on it. You can find many more with the search function on the top of the page. First one is by far the most exhaustive on IF. Second one answers your question pretty early on in the thread. -- jim

http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31028
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36784&highlight=Intensive+Fire
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31678&highlight=Intensive+Fire

 

[alanp]

Thanks, Jim, you beat me to the punch. this thread has the most to say about it.

I'd always thought that a Gun could Final Fire+Intensive Fire until I read some of the rules quotes in this thread. It just doesn't make sense to me, however, that a Gun could D1F+IF but not DFF+IF. Read and decide.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Alan,
I agree with your assessment. It seems odd to me too. -- jim

 

[alanp]

OK, so Dave, if you were playing Jim or me, we'd let you IF after Final Fire.

Basically, the reason is, I'd always just gone straight to C5.6. Nothing in there about prohibitions in DFPh. They even take the time to mention no IF in AFPh and states of the crew which would prohibit IF. Subtler minds have cobbled several rules references together to present another view, however, and they seem valid and coherent. (how's that for a back-handed compliment?)

 

[apbills]

If you read through the thread in its entirety (which I did just now), you will find that Ole Boe received a Perry Sez on this question.

Originally Posted by Perry sez
>May a Gun marked by Final Fire use Intensive Fire? Especially, if a Gun
>looses ROF in the DFPh (and thereby gets marked with a Final Fire counter),
>can it use Intensive Fire thereafter?
>

Yes vs adjacent target
Yes.

You may IF a gun during DFPh that has not fired previously.

The question still remains on the exact interpretation of the answers as given to a two part question. Does the answer restrict all IF in the DFPh to adjacent targets?

I have not seen a clarification on this.

 

[dwardzala]

OK, if I understand correctly, looking at the Perry Sez, if I have fired the gun only in the DPh (maked with final fire counter) I may intensive fire the gun but its IF shot is restricted to adjacent targets.

Jim, I agree with your interpretation and will process out log accordingly. Thanks to all for the clarification.

 

[Larry]

The question still remains on the exact interpretation of the answers as given to a two part question. Does the answer restrict all IF in the DFPh to adjacent targets?

I have not seen a clarification on this.

Isn't this answered by A8.4:

Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again (by flipping their First Fire marker over to the Final Fire side), but as Area Fire and only at units in an adjacent (or same) hex, therefore also possibly benefIting from PBF (or TPBF).

 

[Oberst Balck]

Can we have the truly last answer please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Boe
Originally Posted by Perry sez
>May a Gun marked by Final Fire use Intensive Fire? Especially, if a Gun
>looses ROF in the DFPh (and thereby gets marked with a Final Fire counter),
>can it use Intensive Fire thereafter?
>

Yes vs adjacent target
Yes.



A gun marked with a FINAL fire counter is one that has either fired only in the DFPh.

So the question(s) are on IF:

1) Can a gun that lost its ROF during First Fire ( gee look at that big tank Joe; lets do something) fire again. If so is it DF or IF and in either case can the second shot be against a non adjacent target.

2) Can a gun that uses its ROF in the DFPh use IF at a non adjacent target?

Grasshopper the answer to these questioms will lead to much amazement....

Where is Perry if this is still a bone of contention ??? :nervous:

 

[Mr Incredible]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Boe
Originally Posted by Perry sez
>May a Gun marked by Final Fire use Intensive Fire? Especially, if a Gun
>looses ROF in the DFPh (and thereby gets marked with a Final Fire counter),
>can it use Intensive Fire thereafter?
>

Yes vs adjacent target
Yes.



A gun marked with a FINAL fire counter is one that has either fired only in the DFPh.

So the question(s) are on IF:

1) Can a gun that lost its ROF during First Fire ( gee look at that big tank Joe; lets do something) fire again. If so is it DF or IF and in either case can the second shot be against a non adjacent target.

2) Can a gun that uses its ROF in the DFPh use IF at a non adjacent target?

Grasshopper the answer to these questioms will lead to much amazement....

Where is Perry if this is still a bone of contention ??? :nervous:

My reading of things (which is in no way the final word) would be:

A gun/MA that has First Fired during the MPh can use Subsequent First Fire during the MPh at any target at any range and suffer the consequences of IF, but if it First Fired during the MPh and waits until the DFPh it could Final Fire as Intensive Fire at only adjacent or in hex targets.

Later............

 

[Ole Boe]

1) Can a gun that lost its ROF during First Fire ( gee look at that big tank Joe; lets do something) fire again. If so is it DF or IF and in either case can the second shot be against a non adjacent target.

The answer partly depends on whether this second shot is Defensive First Fire (fire during the enemy MPh) or Final Fire (fire during the DFPh).

If the former, C5.6 applies, giving it a second shot without any restrictions (although with +2 TH DRM and decreased B#).

If the latter, A8.4 gives an additional restriction: "... only at units in an adjacent (or same) hex"

2) Can a gun that uses its ROF in the DFPh use IF at a non adjacent target?

This one is more problematic to answer using the rules alone. A8.4 only grants an additional shot to weapons marked with "First Fire", not to weapons marked with "Final Fire". So there's (at least) three possible interpretations:

1) That A8.4 doesn't apply at all when the Gun is marked with Final Fire - thus allowing IF vs non-adjacent targets.
2) That A8.4 applies and prohibits the shot entirely for the Gun as it does for other types of weapons.
3) That A8.4 applies and treats a Final Fire-marked Gun as if it was marked with First Fire only - i.e. allows IF vs adjacent targets only.


As you see from the Perry Sez above, Perry chose answer 3. Unfortunately that one is the one that is certainly not supported by the current A8.4 - although it is probably the interpretation that makes most sense.

So it depends on how much you value a Perry sez. that makes sense but is not supported by the rules. I prefer to follow the Perry sez., but will do my best to get an errata in J7 so that this rule is clarified. I don't really mind very much which interpretation that becomes official, but I'd like the rule to get clearer than it is now.

 

[Ole Boe]

A gun/MA that has First Fired during the MPh can use Subsequent First Fire during the MPh at any target at any range and suffer the consequences of IF, but if it First Fired during the MPh and waits until the DFPh it could Final Fire as Intensive Fire at only adjacent or in hex targets.

This is correct - except for the fact that it is not called Subsequent First Fire...

 

[klasmalmstrom]

This one is more problematic to answer using the rules alone. A8.4 only grants an additional shot to weapons marked with "First Fire", not to weapons marked with "Final Fire". So there's (at least) three possible interpretations:

1) That A8.4 doesn't apply at all when the Gun is marked with Final Fire - thus allowing IF vs non-adjacent targets.
2) That A8.4 applies and prohibits the shot entirely for the Gun as it does for other types of weapons.
3) That A8.4 applies and treats a Final Fire-marked Gun as if it was marked with First Fire only - i.e. allows IF vs adjacent targets only.


As you see from the Perry Sez above, Perry chose answer 3. Unfortunately that one is the one that is certainly not supported by the current A8.4 - although it is probably the interpretation that makes most sense.

If I remember correclty there was some question as to what the Perry Sez actually meant - if it supported answer 1 or 3.

Personally I hope that any errata from MMP on this subject will support answer 1, as that is how all/most of the players I have met/played have played it.

 

[Mr Incredible]

This is correct - except for the fact that it is not called Subsequent First Fire...

You knew what I meant even though I didn't...... :hmmm:

 

[Ole Boe]

If I remember correclty there was some question as to what the Perry Sez actually meant - if it supported answer 1 or 3.

If it was supposed to support 1, it wouldn't have added the "vs adjacent target" part...

Personally I hope that any errata from MMP on this subject will support answer 1, as that is how all/most of the players I have met/played have played it.

There is a "Tip from the Trenches" in one of the older Journals (IIRC), explaining this, saying that you need to take the IF during the enemy MPh if you want to make it vs non-adjacent enemy, which definately rules out 1.

Now, MMP may change their mind of course, and decide on 1. As said above, I don't have a strong opinion here, but think a clarification is neeed.

 

[richfam]

I've been following this thread, and reviewing the earlier threads mentioned above. There is something that bothers me about interpretation #3:

3) That A8.4 applies and treats a Final Fire-marked Gun as if it was marked with First Fire only - i.e. allows IF vs adjacent targets only.

Thus, if a Gun fires in Prep Fire and exhausts ROF, it can fire again as IF at any target... but if the same Gun fires in Final Fire (no First Fire attempted) and exhausts ROF, it is PENALIZED by being limited to IF only against adjacent targets.

Is any other attack penalized in this way between Prep Fire and Final Fire? If other attacks are always treated identically in Prep Fire and Final Fire (always assuming that no First Fire is attempted) why would Guns be so penalized in Final Fire?

Or, to restate this in plain English: if Prep Fire is the attacker shooting normally, and Final Fire is the defender shooting normally, why would there be any difference in how Guns are handled between the two? ...A difference that does not exist when you are firing squads, MGs, OBA, etc.

 

[Larry]

Is any other attack penalized in this way between Prep Fire and Final Fire? If other attacks are always treated identically in Prep Fire and Final Fire (always assuming that no First Fire is attempted) why would Guns be so penalized in Final Fire?

Sustained fire, FPF, firelanes, ... there are a lot of differences between prep fire possibilities and D1F and DFPh possibilities. The distinctions are not bothersome.

 

[zgrose]

Defender has always had more option during MPh, actually. A different question is: why should Gun be exempted from the same restrictions as other weapons?

 

[apbills]

There is a "Tip from the Trenches" in one of the older Journals (IIRC), explaining this, saying that you need to take the IF during the enemy MPh if you want to make it vs non-adjacent enemy, which definately rules out 1.

Journal 3, page 13, and again on page 22. Whoever submitted the Tips was obviously thinking that way.

Although Journal 1 has a Tip telling you to ignore a previous tip since it was wrong.

I just went through all my journals to read the tips again. Some real nice ones in there.

Also noticed in J4, copyright 2002. "COMING SOON - Valor of the Guards, ready for preorder 2003!"

 

[dwardzala]

I've been following this thread, and reviewing the earlier threads mentioned above. There is something that bothers me about interpretation #3:



Thus, if a Gun fires in Prep Fire and exhausts ROF, it can fire again as IF at any target... but if the same Gun fires in Final Fire (no First Fire attempted) and exhausts ROF, it is PENALIZED by being limited to IF only against adjacent targets.

Is any other attack penalized in this way between Prep Fire and Final Fire? If other attacks are always treated identically in Prep Fire and Final Fire (always assuming that no First Fire is attempted) why would Guns be so penalized in Final Fire?

Or, to restate this in plain English: if Prep Fire is the attacker shooting normally, and Final Fire is the defender shooting normally, why would there be any difference in how Guns are handled between the two? ...A difference that does not exist when you are firing squads, MGs, OBA, etc.

Rich,

This is what initially bothered me about the rule. However, I can rationalize the mechanic this way: Prep Fire is planned and Defensive Fire (whether in the Movement Phase as First Fire or in the Defensive Fire phase) is reactionary. And like Ole Boe, I can live with it either way, but the rule needs to be clarified.