Input Requested - Desert Warfare in ASL

[ZenRiver]

So what do people think of the current Desert implementation of ASL?

What do you think is good about it?
What needs to be changed?
What additions would you like to see to playing in that environment?
What Terrain would you like to see added?
What particular battles or CG's would you like to see developed?

 

[witchbottles]

So what do people think of the current Desert implementation of ASL?

What do you think is good about it?
What needs to be changed?
What additions would you like to see to playing in that environment?
What Terrain would you like to see added?
What particular battles or CG's would you like to see developed?

Personally, I REALLY enjoy DTO play overall, and typically focus my ASL game selction specifically to include at least 4 scenarios a year in DTO conditions.

CHs efforts at expanding the DTO selection allowed some very good ( and some pretty crappy, yes) additions to the theatre for everyone who bought them. I do not regret spending money there on ASL.

What is really missing in DTO? 1940 and 1941 based CGs. scenarios in general. East Africa. the Levant. Tunisia. ( yes there are perhaps a select few of each I named, but far less than what the theatre offers.)

I am aware of a Mechili 1941 based CG in design / play test state at the moment. I am aware of a Keren CG in initial design stages at the moment. Beyond that, not much I know of.

KRL, JonH

 

[Helmseye]

My reality is simply that I can't get a game of it. No one seems paticularly interested in investing in the special rules and feels its tanks shooting at each other at distance


shame

 

[Sparafucil3]

IMO, desert warfare gets a bad wrap for being "too dicey". Long range, low odds shots ringing across the board certainly doesn't help that reputation. Where they see dicey, I see working for every pip on the dice (TH and TK in particular). Knowing at what range to engage in order to get favorable probabilities is part and parcel of the experience. Personally, I wouldn't change much.

I would love to see some of the CH desert stuff re-worked by a professional ASL company. Bier el Gubi and Ruweisat Ridge would be interesting to to me if it didn't come with all the CH baggage of shoddy production values. -- jim

 

[jrv]

The "diceyness" rep is sometimes earned because of the vehicle-heavy scenarios. Infantry frequently comes back from bad results; vehicles usually don't. Even a balanced, vehicle-heavy scenario is often balanced on a razor blade; once the results start tipping one way it's hard for them to swing back the other way. "Blazing Chariots" often plays this way. It tips one way slightly then it's all over.

With little cover Infantry can play that way too. Once broken, units can remain DM indefinitely because there's no where to rout out of LOS. And it's easy for the enemy to get behind you while still being visible, so your broken MMC can't rout back to a leader.

That said, I like desert. I think it needs larger numbers of vehicles than typical in ETO scenarios to counteract the diceyness.

JR

 

[rdw5150]

I would love to see some of the CH desert stuff re-worked by a professional ASL company. Bier el Gubi and Ruweisat Ridge would be interesting to to me if it didn't come with all the CH baggage of shoddy production values. -- jim

I want to play the RR CG some day. Matter of fact, its the only reason I want to learn DTO. I bought the version with the updated map. The CG seem popular (considering its DTO). I like the new map (its when CH still did maps right).

Bummer is there does not seem to be a VASL map for the new one

Peace

Roger

 

[witchbottles]

My reality is simply that I can't get a game of it. No one seems paticularly interested in investing in the special rules and feels its tanks shooting at each other at distance


shame

email me if you'd like to try a PBEM desert game

witchbottles at gmail dot com if you are,

KRL, Jon H

 

[Ganjulama]

I bought the version with the updated map.

I almost bought this but I heard that the map, while a nice upgrade, did not match the primitive map in which the scenarios and CG were play tested.

It might have all been BS, but I'm very, very leery of CH and must hear lots of good things before I'm willing to part with the hard earned dollar.

 

[Randy Strader]

With little cover Infantry can play that way too. Once broken, units can remain DM indefinitely because there's no where to rout out of LOS. And it's easy for the enemy to get behind you while still being visible, so your broken MMC can't rout back to a leader.
JR

This point is worth emphasizing.
One interesting aspect of DTO is that DVP give extra points to vehicles, yet in practice great care needs to be taken instead to protect infantry from breaking to achieve objectives. (My last scenario played last month saw the leader and squad I needed to capture a hillock instead break and rout so far out in the desert that they qualified as honorary bedouin). That said, I do think the desert forces nonintuitive, clever strategy, e.g. the purposeful use of platoon movement as given in that old article Gunned Up in the Desert.

The dicey-ness can also be mitigated to some degree by choosing scenarios with difficult EC, for that forces the combatants to get up close and personal.

 

[Carln0130]

DTO is not dead in the ASL system. Hell, I got 16 guys plus some extra guys to play in a DTO tournament in VASL. (See tournament and event section of this forum.)What is good about it? Well, as with pretty much every theatre of war in ASL, when you go to the desert, it has a very unique feel to it, as it should. You have to change your tactics to make the most of the hinderances that are unique to the desert.

What needs to be changed? Not a damn thing in my opinion.

Additions? It would be HASL and scenario dependent really. No need to expand such changes out to the entire system. Just make them mission specific. See respone above.

Terrain added? See answer three above.

Battles or CG's? A HASL/CG on Gazala would be awesome. There are a couple of scenarios out on it. El Alemien done by one of the top flight companies has lots of interesting possibilites. More name recognition too. There really are many areas that could be touched on. The first siege of Tobruk, although that would probably be too static. If a good HASL system could be developed for CG's with flowing action, that are not tied to any piece of terrain, then almost any portion of the fighting would do. Tunisia would also lend itself to good HASL action as the fighting there was more positional. Different type of terrain there though. More rugged. Again though, tie the terrain to the project. If people want to use it for other projects after that, more power to them.

So what do people think of the current Desert implementation of ASL?

What do you think is good about it?
What needs to be changed?
What additions would you like to see to playing in that environment?
What Terrain would you like to see added?
What particular battles or CG's would you like to see developed?

 

[RobZagnut]

My reality is simply that I can't get a game of it. No one seems paticularly interested in investing in the special rules and feels its tanks shooting at each other at distance


shame

Great comments on DTO.

I think one of two things has to happen before DTO becomes popular. The Italian module with Chapter F rules must be republished or a TPP needs to publish a DTO pack. Look what the Deluxe pack did for DASL. There hasn't been a decent non-CH DTO pack in a long time. We need a pack to get the interest going again.

One change I would like to see is a rule for Prepared Rally Points (PRP). This would allow each side to create a number of PRP on the desert board where units would be out of LOS, could rally and get the -1 to their rally attempt like in buildings/woods. The counter for the PRP would be identical to Crest counters where if LOS came thru the front three hex sides the units would be out of LOS and couldn't be fired upon. But if it LOS was thru the back 3 hex sides then there would be LOS and units could be fired upon. These PRP would represent crest, dip or defilade in the terrain where units could keep out of LOS and recover. There would need to be rules for the attacker and them having the ability to create or find a number of these. Possibly like a DR to dig an entrenchment.

 

[Mr Incredible]

Desert is fine as is.

Because desert has very little cover, you need to make your own cover, You need to fire Smoke at every opportunity and vehicles and squads need to place smoke at every chance too. If there is dust, then vehicles need to place dust as well. If you have OBA, place smoke liberally. After a few turns you generally have burning Vehicles as cover too (if there's an 88 or two about).

You need to use Armoured Assault when moving on the attack too.

It's not rocket science.

You don't run around in the OG of Europe flailing you arms in the air screaming "shoot at me, shoot at me", then why should it be any different in the desert???

Also, use wadis, deirs, hillocks and dune crests to go HD at every chance.

You'd be amazed how much cover you can find in the desert if you try hard enough.

 

[Glennbo]

I will post here, because there must be wondering why Glennbo didn't design the greatest desert scenarios in the history of the world.

Get rid of the dust rules.

Turn the giant plane into it's real meaning.

 

[jrv]

I will post here, because there must be wondering why Glennbo didn't design the greatest desert scenarios in the history of the world.

Get rid of the dust rules.

Turn the giant plane into it's real meaning.

The dust rules, and especially vehicle dust, are the heart and soul of the desert rules. Without them, you might as well be playing east front (well, except for the funky British and Italian vehicles). Not every scenario needs extra-heavy dust with a dollop of dust on top, but if you were forced to say what makes Khamsin a classic, it's the dust.

JR

 

[Helmseye]

Rob

I see your point about if there was a new pack with desert thst might help get the interest going again. But I have a whole big box of commonwealth troops with lots of maps and scenarios in it that I am sure a high % of players have not played

I just need to find the right one to try and get them going. I have so far only played blazing chariots twice......

However I did get to play a fun scenario in manchuria where the russians were attacking that used desert rules abd some point I will remeber its name

 

[MAS01]

Rob

I see your point about if there was a new pack with desert thst might help get the interest going again. But I have a whole big box of commonwealth troops with lots of maps and scenarios in it that I am sure a high % of players have not played

I just need to find the right one to try and get them going. I have so far only played blazing chariots twice......

However I did get to play a fun scenario in manchuria where the russians were attacking that used desert rules abd some point I will remeber its name

I think you may be talking about scenario 65 "Red Star, Red Sun". Takes place in 1939, Japanese have no armor, but some air support, Russians with BT-5s and BT-7. Boards have a ton of overlays.

Just learning desert theater myself. Just finished playing RbF6 "Desert Fortress", an all infantry affair, but good to get your feet dusty and work out some tactics. Currently playing Tac11 "Dance With A Queen", British forces attacking a fortified Italian position.

 

[Blackcloud6]

DTO is just fine as it is. You have to adjust your tactics and that is what makes it cool.

I've enjoyed every DTO scenario I've played.

 

[Blackcloud6]

because there must be wondering why Glennbo didn't design the greatest desert scenarios in the history of the world.

Don't fool yourselves, he can't design the best DTO scenario ever because he is too busy working in the prison laundry.

 

[witchbottles]

Great comments on DTO.

I think one of two things has to happen before DTO becomes popular. The Italian module with Chapter F rules must be republished or a TPP needs to publish a DTO pack. Look what the Deluxe pack did for DASL. There hasn't been a decent non-CH DTO pack in a long time. We need a pack to get the interest going again.

One change I would like to see is a rule for Prepared Rally Points (PRP). This would allow each side to create a number of PRP on the desert board where units would be out of LOS, could rally and get the -1 to their rally attempt like in buildings/woods. The counter for the PRP would be identical to Crest counters where if LOS came thru the front three hex sides the units would be out of LOS and couldn't be fired upon. But if it LOS was thru the back 3 hex sides then there would be LOS and units could be fired upon. These PRP would represent crest, dip or defilade in the terrain where units could keep out of LOS and recover. There would need to be rules for the attacker and them having the ability to create or find a number of these. Possibly like a DR to dig an entrenchment.

I kind of like the idea of PRP , Rob.

To knock a decent hole of any usefulness in the hardpan karst floor of the North African desert typically required explosives, and that meant taking time to blow slit trenches for cover, etc. With the need to "prepare" a position if one was going to attempt to defend it, it would then follow that in this case, a defender would get a larger number of available PRP, an attacker, very few.

the crux, battle would tend to flow around those points, so the VCs would need to reflect such an event.

Its not entirely ahistorical. Battles in the the DTO very ,very often turned on the minor undulations of the minimal terrain in the first place. Focusing such action with an item like prepared rally points would simply make this much more common than the free flowing maneuver we see now.

 

[volgaG68]

I have yet to play them, but I recently purchased the digital backlog of DftB scenarios, and one of the first themes to catch my eye was their 'Tunisian Series'. Looking over those scenarios, I'm eagerly awaiting the chance to crack 'em open. Not your 'classic' desert terrain, but desert rules liberally sprinkled in nonetheless (Wadis, Dust, Desert CVP, etc.). Just going off of memory, but IIRC the primary combatants were US vs Vichy French. Anyone here had a chance to play them?