Infiltration question

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,158
Reaction score
693
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
SIGH

I can never keep this straight.

Its the Japanese player turn. There is a melee, which not turns to HtH. Japanese rolls a 6, which becomes a 5. Chinese player rolls snakes. Leader creation and infiltration. However the Japanese player had already been attacked and rolled a 5. So, after leader creation are they both still dead? I think that is how it goes.

If it would have been Chinese player's turn there would have been no Japanese attack and a withdraw could have taken place.

Correct?

Thanks!

Roger
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,551
Reaction score
608
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
Your memory is correct regarding the sequence of event. The Japanese attack took place first, so the effects of the final DR 5 must be accounted for before the Chinese attack is applied plus option to withdraw.

Normally, the new leader's CC 1FP might have changed the odds (in addition to any leadership DRM). And an existing Q&A states that you would refigure both attacks even when the attacks are non-sequential. But A18.12 also state that this will not happen if one or both sides withdraw.

A18.12 ...Unless one or both sides Withdraw due to Infiltration (11.22), both attacks are re-figured using both of the originally-rolled Original DRs and the new leader's FP/Leadership just as if he had been there all along.​
And:

Q. (A18.12) Are both attacks re-figured after Leader creation if the CC is non-Sequential?​
A. Yes.​
I think that A18.12 still trumps the Q&A in this case. No refiguring odds or DRM when a withdrawal is chosen. It seems a little weird to me in this case, but I suppose the Chinese could choose not to withdraw if the new odds will spare their lives yet kill the enemy.
 
Last edited:

klasmalmstrom

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
16,258
Reaction score
2,734
Location
Sweden
Country
llSweden
If it would have been Chinese player's turn there would have been no Japanese attack and a withdraw could have taken place.
If the Chinese choose to not Withdraw, then the Japanese would roll their attack - with possible new odds if a Chinese leader was created.
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,158
Reaction score
693
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
If the Chinese choose to not Withdraw, then the Japanese would roll their attack - with possible new odds if a Chinese leader was created.
But can the Chinese choose to withdraw on the Japanese player's turn when they have been attacked?

Thanks!

Roger
 

Binchois

Too many words...
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,551
Reaction score
608
Location
Michigan
First name
Lester
Country
llUnited States
If the new leader and leadership DRM will change the odds so that the Chinese aren't killed, then they can do that retroactively. However, they cannot retroactively refigure the odds and withdraw since this is prohibited by A18.12.

A11.22 Provided it has not already been eliminated/captured/pinned, any Infantry/Cavalry unit which rolls an Original 2 CC DR may withdraw from CC/Melee immediately thereafter in the same CCPh without being attacked, even if it did not eliminate the defenders (see also Field Promotions; [cited in post #2 above]).​
 

rdw5150

it's just a game
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Messages
8,158
Reaction score
693
Location
Erie, PA
First name
Roger
Country
llUnited States
OK that is what I thought.

Thanks!
 

Maurizizio

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
93
Reaction score
46
Country
llUnited States
Dear all, I have a question about infiltration and sequential CC. A unit move into CC. As first roll the Attacker makes a snakeyes. Infiltration, and Field promotion. From A11.22: "Provided it has not already been eliminated/captured/pinned, any Infantry/Cavalry unit which rolls an Original 2 CC DR may withdraw from CC/Melee immediately thereafter in the same CCPh without being attacked, even if it did not eliminate the defenders". A Q&A states as well: "
Two units in CC, one squad from each side. The attacker rolls an original 2, which after resolving Leader Creation is sufficient to eliminate the defender. Can the attacker remain in the Location without suffering the defender's attack, since the defender is eliminated by the 2 DR (i.e., is the attack now sequential)?
Or must the attacker (and newly created leader) withdraw as per A11.22 Infiltration to avoid the return attack, thereby leaving the Location empty?
No (no). Yes."
The Question is: Can the Attacker create a leader, attack in CC the defender, eliminate it, and then withdraw without being attacked by the eliminated enemy unit?
Thanks
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,562
Reaction score
5,637
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Dear all, I have a question about infiltration and sequential CC. A unit move into CC. As first roll the Attacker makes a snakeyes. Infiltration, and Field promotion. From A11.22: "Provided it has not already been eliminated/captured/pinned, any Infantry/Cavalry unit which rolls an Original 2 CC DR may withdraw from CC/Melee immediately thereafter in the same CCPh without being attacked, even if it did not eliminate the defenders". A Q&A states as well: "
Two units in CC, one squad from each side. The attacker rolls an original 2, which after resolving Leader Creation is sufficient to eliminate the defender. Can the attacker remain in the Location without suffering the defender's attack, since the defender is eliminated by the 2 DR (i.e., is the attack now sequential)?
Or must the attacker (and newly created leader) withdraw as per A11.22 Infiltration to avoid the return attack, thereby leaving the Location empty?
No (no). Yes."
The Question is: Can the Attacker create a leader, attack in CC the defender, eliminate it, and then withdraw without being attacked by the eliminated enemy unit?
Thanks
Isn't your case exactly the same as the q&a? In which case the answer is the same. Or have I misunderstood your question?

Note that in your case (and in the case of the question) the CC is not sequential CC, unless you have failed to mention some relevant information. Sequential CC only occurs from ambush, prisoners or vehicles. Rolling a snakeeyes is a momentary suspension of simultaneous CC, but it is not sequential CC.

JR
 
Last edited:

Maurizizio

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
93
Reaction score
46
Country
llUnited States
Well, we (me and my opponent) are not native language speaker, so we have a different interpretation of the rules. So I understand it is not sequential (unless ambush occurs, understood), but the Attacker attack in CC and then withdraw, without being attacked. Thanks for the clarification.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,562
Reaction score
5,637
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Well, we (me and my opponent) are not native language speaker, so we have a different interpretation of the rules. So I understand it is not sequential (unless ambush occurs, understood), but the Attacker attack in CC and then withdraw, without being attacked. Thanks for the clarification.
In "simultaneous" CC when a player rolls snakeeyes on an attack, the units may immediately withdraw, regardless of whether they creates a leader or not, and regardless of whether or not they eliminated their target, unless the units have already been eliminated. Despite being called "simultaneous" CC the game mechanics are anything but. The ATTACKER announces all his attacks, then the DEFENDER. The ATTACKER next makes all his DRs, then the DEFENDER.

In a simple example, assume two four-FP squads are attacking each other, and the CC is not sequential. The ATTACKER announces a 1:1 attack. The DEFENDER announces a 1:1 attack. No surprises there.

The ATTACKER now rolls his attack. If he rolls a two, he rolls for leader creation, and after that is figured out, he determines the effect of the attack. It is possible that even with a two he does not eliminate the target. He might be CX in crest status and just created a 6+1 leader, in which case there is no result. Because the squad (and any newly-created leader) rolled a two, it may withdraw immediately. If the squad withdraws the DEFENDER will have no attack back. If the ATTACKER does not withdraw, the DEFENDER will have its attack back, possibly now at 1:2 odds because of a new leader. If the ATTACKER squad does not roll a two, it may still eliminate or CR the DEFENDER.

The DEFENDER now rolls its 1:1 attack (assuming the ATTACKER did not roll a two and withdraw). It too may roll a two. If it does, it rolls for leader creation and refigures its attack if a leader is created. Again the DEFENDER may or may not eliminate the ATTACKER with a two, depending on DRM. Regardless of whether the ATTACKER is eliminated or not, the DEFENDER squad may withdraw unless it was eliminated by the ATTACKER in the preceding step. If it was CR'd the surviving halfsquad may withdraw.

JR
 
Top