Infantry 'changing direction' while in Bypass

von Marwitz

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Please consider the above illustration.

Situation:
  1. The 667 in K8 wants to move into Bypass in J7 along the J7/J8 hexside, then spend additional MF for other purposes while in bypass (for example popping Infantry Smoke into J7 or I6) and then move back into K8.
  2. Alternatively, it wants to move into Bypass in J7 along the J7/K8 hexside, spending zero additional MF (for example dropping a SW) and then move back into K8.
Question:

Are these moves legal?


TIA,
von Marwitz
 

Kijug

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Is option #2 legal? You cannot move into bypass like that, can you? If starting in K8 the only two bypass options are J7/J8 or J7/K7, as regards to bypassing the building in J7. Yes/no/maybe-so?
 

Pyth

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Item 2 is really interesting. A unit would be able to drop a SW weapon without exposure to fire from the other side of the obstacle. I'm pretty sure the weapon doesn't stay in bypass but gets absorbed into the house. So Infantry in the house would essentially be getting a weapon passed to them thru a back window/door (assuming they make their recovery roll and survive any fire directed their way prompted by the 1 mf recovery.) Super cool.
 

von Marwitz

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Item 2 is really interesting. A unit would be able to drop a SW weapon without exposure to fire from the other side of the obstacle. I'm pretty sure the weapon doesn't stay in bypass but gets absorbed into the house. So Infantry in the house would essentially be getting a weapon passed to them thru a back window/door (assuming they make their recovery roll and survive any fire directed their way prompted by the 1 mf recovery.) Super cool.
This is exactly what Oberst von Marwitz was thinking of. Contrary to the malignant tales spread by Major von Schoff, his old nemesis from the Kriegsschule in Dresden, the Oberst is not solely savvy on prime vintages and champagne...

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Pyth

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Is option #2 legal? You cannot move into bypass like that, can you? If starting in K8 the only two bypass options are J7/J8 or J7/K7, as regards to bypassing the building in J7. Yes/no/maybe-so?
I have the same question but looking over the rules I don't see the bolded part stipulated. I think the relevant part of A4.31 is "Bypass may consist of one or two contiguous hexsides" ... how would that exclude the J7/K8 hexside? It's a pretty limited unusual circumstance... but it is potentially useful and it isn't silly, it seems to actually represent something infantry might really want to do.
 

jrv

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View attachment 9304

Please consider the above illustration.

Situation:
  1. Alternatively, it wants to move into Bypass in J7 along the J7/K8 hexside, spending zero additional MF (for example dropping a SW) and then move back into K8.
Question:

Are these moves legal?
I am not clear that the move to the J7/K8 hexside is legal. That said, the move from that hexside to K8 is clearly not allowed per the A4.31 EX. From that bypass position the unit can move to J8, K7 or INTO J7 (although actually the A4.31 EX says it can only move "forward", i.e. a move into bypass then back into the hex the unit entered from is not legal, and its not clear which end of this bypass move would be "forward").

JR
 

jrv

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View attachment 9304

Please consider the above illustration.

Situation:
  1. The 667 in K8 wants to move into Bypass in J7 along the J7/J8 hexside, then spend additional MF for other purposes while in bypass (for example popping Infantry Smoke into J7 or I6) and then move back into K8.
Question:

Are these moves legal?
Per the A4.31 EX, no. The only options in the EX are the "forward" hexes or entering the bypassed obstacle.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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Per the A4.31 EX, no. The only options in the EX are the "forward" hexes or entering the bypassed obstacle.

JR
All right. So in that case the unit wanting to drop the SW would have to move into Bypass J7/J8 and drop the SW there, I8, Bypass J7/J8 into the other direction and then to K8, from where it started.

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Pyth

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I am not clear that the move to the J7/K8 hexside is legal. That said, the move from that hexside to K8 is clearly not allowed per the A4.31 EX. From that bypass position the unit can move to J8, K7 or INTO J7 (although actually the A4.31 EX says it can only move "forward", i.e. a move into bypass then back into the hex the unit entered from is not legal, and its not clear which end of this bypass move would be "forward").

JR
Hmmm... those darn examples. Disappointing, truly.

Nevertheless I believe Oberst von Marwitz deserves commendation for enterprise and initiative. (It's no doubt an excess consumption of champagne and caviar that fuel his wild tactical flights of fancy.)
 

jrv

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All right. So in that case the unit wanting to drop the SW would have to move into Bypass J7/J8 and drop the SW there, I8, Bypass J7/J8 into the other direction and then to K8, from where it started.
I don't see anything allowing you to reverse direction in bypass. You can continue on forward, but not reverse. But perhaps a PerrySez would allow it. You can clearly move forward into I8 then turn around.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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I don't see anything allowing you to reverse direction in bypass. You can continue on forward, but not reverse. But perhaps a PerrySez would allow it. You can clearly move forward into I8 then turn around.

JR
Well, I would complete the Bypass of J7/J8 by moving into I8 and then making a 'new' bypass afterwards, bypassing J7/J8 again and completing it moving to the new forward direction K8. This takes 4MF altogether, while the original (illegal) approach would only have cost 2MF.

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Honosbinda

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A4.3 implies that 'dropping' of SW in bypass is not an allowed action, because specific mention is made of allowing DC and smoke grenade placement. Although even that portion is poorly worded because the rule should say something about 'while in bypass' rather than 'use of bypass.' Further, it would be unrealistic (if I dare use that word without getting beaten up by the usual cast of characters) perhaps, to allow the smoke grenades to be accurately tossed 'through' the obstacle, for example, placing smoke in I8 in the diagram while in bypass along the J7/K7 hexside while declaring the squad to be in J7 while bypassing.

The main intent of bypass is to get around the obstacle, not to skulk around behind it passing weapons through rear windows. The guys would be expected to bring the weapons to the fire teams (via in-location weapons transfer) and risk death just like everyone else has to do in war.
 

jrv

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Further, it would be unrealistic (if I dare use that word without getting beaten up by the usual cast of characters) perhaps, to allow the smoke grenades to be accurately tossed 'through' the obstacle, for example, placing smoke in I8 in the diagram while in bypass along the J7/K7 hexside while declaring the squad to be in J7 while bypassing.
I don't know about unrealistic but it would not be legal. SMOKE grenades can only be placed in an ADJACENT Location [A24.1], and per the index ADJACENT requires LOS. If the LOS is blocked by an obstacle the SMOKE grenades may not be placed.

JR
 

Honosbinda

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I don't know about unrealistic but it would not be legal. SMOKE grenades can only be placed in an ADJACENT Location [A24.1], and per the index ADJACENT requires LOS. If the LOS is blocked by an obstacle the SMOKE grenades may not be placed.

JR
Yes, good point about this particular situation because neither vertex has LOS to I8 in this case. But that's as far as it goes.

If there were LOS from the vertex J7/K7/K8 to the center dot of I8, presumably such placement would be allowed during bypass (perhaps only from the direction of J6 bypassing toward said vertex). Basically as they hit the vertex, you think they should be allowed to toss the smoke then?

Note that the smoke grenade rules A24.1 do not mandate that the squad 'save an MP to get out of bypass when done tossing' so presumably an infantry unit could then place (or even a DC) or smoke grenade with its last movement points and as a result need to be placed in the bypassed obstacle. should that be allowed?

That's basically a free move into an obstacle after tossing smoke, do you think that was the designers' intent with bypass? I doubt it.
 

Pyth

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Note that the smoke grenade rules A24.1 do not mandate that the squad 'save an MP to get out of bypass when done tossing' so presumably an infantry unit could then place (or even a DC) or smoke grenade with its last movement points and as a result need to be placed in the bypassed obstacle. should that be allowed?
I think A4.32 is where you want to look, not in the smoke grenade rules.

A4.32 Broken In Bypass: ...Infantry may not voluntarily end its move using bypass.
So, An infantry unit tossing smoke grenades/planting DC with its last mf while in bypass is voluntarily ending it's move in bypass -- I think that's clearly NA.

A4.3 implies that 'dropping' of SW in bypass is not an allowed action, because specific mention is made of allowing DC and smoke grenade placement.
You think A4.43 is implying a weapon can't be dropped because Demo charges and smoke grenades can be placed? Isn't it just the opposite? If you can place a Demo charge, you can drop a weapon (like say, a demo charge, for instance). You were relying on realism earlier... I think you're pretty clearly on the wrong side of realism on this point.
 
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