Infantry Bypass Freeze - hmmm...

von Marwitz

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A4.3 states "Bypass cannot be used to skirt the edges of [...] an obstacle that is Ablaze or contains an armed non-Disrupted (19.12) Known enemy unit."

I read the above and this set me thinking...

11794

Imagine the following situation:
The German HS in R7 wants to bypass S7 along the S7/S8 hexside to enter T7.
As the Russian 447 is concealed, it is not Known to the German HS.

As such, it seems that the bypass of the German HS is in accordance with the rules as long as the 447 remains Concealed.

Interestingly, the HS is not automatically bounced back to R7 unless the Russian 447 elects to reveal itself.

A12.15 DETECTION: Concealment can also be lost due to attempted enemy movement (not advance) into a concealed unit's Location. Whenever a non-berserk enemy infantry/non-charging Cavalry unit attempts to move into a Location containing a concealed unit during the MPh [EXC: Bypass (12.151)], the DEFENDER must immediately reveal at least one concealed unit in that Location and thereby force the moving unit back (even from a Wire Location) to the last Location occupied before entering his Location [EXC: units allowed to enter an enemy Location during the MPh; 4.14] where it will lose concealment and end its MPh (unless it goes Berserk first) and is subject to possible Defensive First Fire attack (or, in the case of a routing unit, eliminated or captured for Failure to Rout; 10.533).

A12.151 BYPASS: A unit concealed in woods/building terrain does not necessarily lose that status due to an opposing Infantry unit using Bypass in that hex. The opposing Infantry unit must actually attempt to occupy the concealed unit's obstacle and Location (not using Bypass) to cause loss of concealment. However, should Defensive Fire, the presence of other unknown units in the planned exit hex, or other unforeseen circumstances force a Bypass Infantry unit (or any other Infantry unit which legally ends its MPh in the same Location) to end its MPh prematurely in the Bypass Location with a concealed enemy unit, all concealment in that Location is lost. The previously concealed DEFENDING unit(s) may use TPBF against any units in the same Location and is also entitled to [EXC: if the targets are already pinned; 7.83] a -2 First Fire DRM for both FFNAM and FFMO unless the Bypass is through other than Open Ground (such as I9-H8 in 2I9). This FFMO DRM and the lack of TEM apply to units in an obstacle Location only if they were in the act of Bypass therein when First Fired upon (e.g., a berserk unit entering the same Location in non-Bypass mode would be subject only to FFNAM and the normal TEM of that Location). If the Bypassing unit cannot enter the Bypassed Location (e.g., a Fortified Building Location containing an enemy squad), the unit is forced back to the last previously occupied Location it may enter. During Final Fire the moving units would be entitled to full TEM for the obstacle and may attack in turn during their AFPh (Area & TPBF) if they are able. Any survivors are not considered held in Melee until after the CCPh and are therefore able to rout away in the RtPh. Mark the stack with a CC counter to indicate that Melee rules do not yet apply. Any AFV using VBM in the hex can be attacked using Reaction Fire (D7.2).


So, this basically gives the German HS the option either to slip by via Bypass and get into the back of the Russian 447, possibly screwing up Rout paths or wreaking other havoc in its back. Or to 'force' the Russian 447 to drop Concealment to bounce the Germans back to R7 if this is to be prevented. If the 447 elects to fire TPBF and the Germans survive, they'd be placed under CC and thus imposing Target Selection Limits on the Russians.

The interesting thing is that I was not aware of the possibility to avoid the 'blocking power' of the 447 and the possibly unenviable options imposed on the Russians as a consequence.


von Marwitz
 

jrv

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The Soviet unit should be in T7, not S7. If the Soviet player makes a poor choice, it's no one's fault but his.

JR
 

Kijug

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A4.3 states "Bypass cannot be used to skirt the edges of [...] an obstacle that is Ablaze or contains an armed non-Disrupted (19.12) Known enemy unit."

I read the above and this set me thinking...

View attachment 11794

Imagine the following situation:
The German HS in R7 wants to bypass S7 along the S7/S8 hexside to enter T7.
As the Russian 447 is concealed, it is not Known to the German HS.

As such, it seems that the bypass of the German HS is in accordance with the rules as long as the 447 remains Concealed.

Interestingly, the HS is not automatically bounced back to R7 unless the Russian 447 elects to reveal itself.

A12.15 DETECTION: Concealment can also be lost due to attempted enemy movement (not advance) into a concealed unit's Location. Whenever a non-berserk enemy infantry/non-charging Cavalry unit attempts to move into a Location containing a concealed unit during the MPh [EXC: Bypass (12.151)], the DEFENDER must immediately reveal at least one concealed unit in that Location and thereby force the moving unit back (even from a Wire Location) to the last Location occupied before entering his Location [EXC: units allowed to enter an enemy Location during the MPh; 4.14] where it will lose concealment and end its MPh (unless it goes Berserk first) and is subject to possible Defensive First Fire attack (or, in the case of a routing unit, eliminated or captured for Failure to Rout; 10.533).

A12.151 BYPASS: A unit concealed in woods/building terrain does not necessarily lose that status due to an opposing Infantry unit using Bypass in that hex. The opposing Infantry unit must actually attempt to occupy the concealed unit's obstacle and Location (not using Bypass) to cause loss of concealment. However, should Defensive Fire, the presence of other unknown units in the planned exit hex, or other unforeseen circumstances force a Bypass Infantry unit (or any other Infantry unit which legally ends its MPh in the same Location) to end its MPh prematurely in the Bypass Location with a concealed enemy unit, all concealment in that Location is lost. The previously concealed DEFENDING unit(s) may use TPBF against any units in the same Location and is also entitled to [EXC: if the targets are already pinned; 7.83] a -2 First Fire DRM for both FFNAM and FFMO unless the Bypass is through other than Open Ground (such as I9-H8 in 2I9). This FFMO DRM and the lack of TEM apply to units in an obstacle Location only if they were in the act of Bypass therein when First Fired upon (e.g., a berserk unit entering the same Location in non-Bypass mode would be subject only to FFNAM and the normal TEM of that Location). If the Bypassing unit cannot enter the Bypassed Location (e.g., a Fortified Building Location containing an enemy squad), the unit is forced back to the last previously occupied Location it may enter. During Final Fire the moving units would be entitled to full TEM for the obstacle and may attack in turn during their AFPh (Area & TPBF) if they are able. Any survivors are not considered held in Melee until after the CCPh and are therefore able to rout away in the RtPh. Mark the stack with a CC counter to indicate that Melee rules do not yet apply. Any AFV using VBM in the hex can be attacked using Reaction Fire (D7.2).


So, this basically gives the German HS the option either to slip by via Bypass and get into the back of the Russian 447, possibly screwing up Rout paths or wreaking other havoc in its back. Or to 'force' the Russian 447 to drop Concealment to bounce the Germans back to R7 if this is to be prevented. If the 447 elects to fire TPBF and the Germans survive, they'd be placed under CC and thus imposing Target Selection Limits on the Russians.

The interesting thing is that I was not aware of the possibility to avoid the 'blocking power' of the 447 and the possibly unenviable options imposed on the Russians as a consequence.


von Marwitz
Heh...35+ years and we're still figuring out the rules! This game is amazing--so many aspects. Too bad more folks don't play....
 

Philippe D.

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The German HS can try to Bypass the concealed 447, but the 447 has the option to deny the bypass. If the German goal was to strip concealment, then just trying to enter their hex was another option, and a less dangerous one at that.

So, if the German player tries Bypass, then it's a fair bet that ending up behind the 447 seems a better option for him. Hence, the Soviet player should deny it by dropping concealment :)

Note, it's even worse if there is a string of concealed German units in T7 and U8. Then the HS can try to bypass two hexes and enter U8, stripping concealment in U8; since it cannot enter T7, it strips concealment and is bounced back to S7, where it strips concealment and bounces back to its starting position. A CX leader could conceivably try this on a string of up to 8 hexes. (And of course, there is still the option to just bounce him back on the first hex, so it isn't likely to work more than once on the same opponent)
 

von Marwitz

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Note, it's even worse if there is a string of concealed German units in T7 and U8. Then the HS can try to bypass two hexes and enter U8, stripping concealment in U8; since it cannot enter T7, it strips concealment and is bounced back to S7, where it strips concealment and bounces back to its starting position. A CX leader could conceivably try this on a string of up to 8 hexes. (And of course, there is still the option to just bounce him back on the first hex, so it isn't likely to work more than once on the same opponent)
Is this so?

It sounds quite strange that a unit could be bounced back multiple hexes.
By gut-feeling, I 'd reckon it gets bounced back one hex, where it will end its MPh and likely unconceal an enemy-unit there to end up with it marked with a CC counter.

Maybe one of the rules gurus could illumine us, please.

von Marwitz
 

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If it is "bounced" upon an attempt to enter bypass it could conceivably be bounced back multiple hexes I believe. Much better in most instances to wait until the unit has entered into the hex in BP, drop concealment and fire TPBF with FFMO & FFNAM and possibly catch him for FTR or taken POW IMO.
 

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A few here have stated that if an infantry bypasses a concealed unit, that concealed unit has the option of bouncing back the bypassing unit much as when “bumping”.

I do not see where this is allowed in the rules. In my opinion once the moving infantry uses bypass, it cannot be bumped and will either get stuck in the obstacle being bypassed (if pinned, broken or unable to enter the next hex) or move on to his next hex.

Where in the rules does it allow bumping a bypassing unit?
 

Eagle4ty

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A few here have stated that if an infantry bypasses a concealed unit, that concealed unit has the option of bouncing back the bypassing unit much as when “bumping”.

I do not see where this is allowed in the rules. In my opinion once the moving infantry uses bypass, it cannot be bumped and will either get stuck in the obstacle being bypassed (if pinned, broken or unable to enter the next hex) or move on to his next hex.

Where in the rules does it allow bumping a bypassing unit?
Good point. The only possible instance I can envision would be a unit uses BP to traverse one or more "?" unit's, is bounced back trying to enter an obstacle in a subsequent MF expenditure and is "bounced" into a concealed unit that was BP'ed. That unit drops concealment to fire TPBF as the moving unit is bounced back into its location (preventing that movement thus ending up in BP again). If unbroken I would surmise the unit would continue to be bounced back further (but I could be wrong).
 

BattleSchool

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Where in the rules does it allow bumping a bypassing unit?
A unit using Bypass is only returned ("bumped") to its previous Location if it attempts to enter the obstacle occupied by the DEFENDER.

Here's the Q&A:

A12.151
Q. A HS bypasses a woods location containing a concealed enemy squad. The squad decides to drop its concealment, but declines to fire at TPBF. What happens?
a) the HS is returned to the last location entered;
b) a CC counter is put in the hex and the HS cannot move/spend MF any more;
c) the HS can continue its movement and possibly end it outside the now-revealed squad’s hex;

A. The HS must continue moving to a new hex.
 
Last edited:

BattleSchool

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Good point. The only possible instance I can envision would be a unit uses BP to traverse one or more "?" unit's, is bounced back trying to enter an obstacle in a subsequent MF expenditure and is "bounced" into a concealed unit that was BP'ed. That unit drops concealment to fire TPBF as the moving unit is bounced back into its location (preventing that movement thus ending up in BP again). If unbroken I would surmise the unit would continue to be bounced back further (but I could be wrong).
Interesting situation. However, I think the unit would be returned to its previous (Bypass) Location where it would end its MPh in the obstacle with the enemy unit. Before ending its MPh in the obstacle, I believe that the DEFENDER would have the opportunity to use DFF vs the enemy unit while still in Bypass. Once it ends it MPh in the obstacle the enemy unit would be entitled to the obstacle TEM during the DFPh.
 

Philippe D.

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Is this so?

It sounds quite strange that a unit could be bounced back multiple hexes.
Actually, upon re-reading A12.151, it seems you are right - most of the time.

If you attempt to bypass an occupied obstacle and are prevented from leaving the hex by, among other cases, units in the intended exit hex, then you end up occupying the obstacle after al Defensive First Fire. But, if you cannot enter the obstacle (the most obvious case being a fortified building), then you are pushed back.

So, if you bypass a string of fortified sufficiently-occupied buildings, then I think you'd be bounced back multiple hexes. But in more usual circumstances, you'd just enter the last obstacle after DFF - next-to-last if the last is fortified.

(I had remembered this from a post on the French ASL forum - I'll check the arguments, see if there is something I was missing. So you'd still be better off checking this with your Friendly Neighborhood Rules Guru before trying this in a real game)
 

BattleSchool

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I agree that Fortified Locations are an exception, but as Philippe point outs, only if currently occupied by a Good Order unpinned armed enemy squad.

However, the Q&A below suggests that multiple "bounces" may not be permitted, certainly not in the case of PRC.

B23.9 & D6.5
Q. What happens if PRC of a vehicle in Bypass of a Fortified Building Location (occupied by a Good Order unpinned armed enemy squad) unload/bailout/survive destruction of their vehicle?

A. The answer is that the ex-PRC are “in the terrain of the vehicle’s CAFP for purposes of any Defensive First Fire vs them. Immediately after all such First Fire is resolved” (D6.5), they are forced back per A12.15-.151 to the last Location previously occupied by its vehicle that the Infantry unit could enter in a MPh; if no such Location exists, it is eliminated.
 
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