Impeachment

TopT

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We already have the transcript. There is just nothing there to impeach.

Vindman's opinions are irrelevant as anyone can read the transcript.
With that said, no one should be trying to smear his name.
Of course the hypocrisy here is that it was perfectly fine with Carter Paige and Michael Flynn.
Except that Vindman has said that there are portions of the conversation that were not put into the transcript, at least twice. That would make sense as there is about 16 minutes of the conversation missing from the actual transcript.
Didn't Flynn lie to the FBI during his interview? Answer: Yes. If you (specifically) lied to the police during an investigation, do you think something bad might happen to you? Answer: Yes, it just might.
We'll let you try and muddy up the waters about something that happened in 2015 as opposed to something that actually is happening in 2019.

Just for clarity on Flynn. This is from the DOJ (I know, I know, Deep State, never tRUMPers) yesterday, 29Oct2019 :

The Justice Department rejected what it called an "extraordinary reversal" by retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn for claiming to be the victim of a "plot to set up an innocent man and create a crime."

Flynn "now claims that he is innocent of the criminal charge in this case," federal prosecutors said in a court filing Tuesday, referring to an allegation by Flynn's legal team that he was ambushed for an interview by the FBI in January 2017.

"For the first time, the defendant represents to this Court that he 'was honest with the agents [on Jan. 24, 2017] to the best of his recollection at the time,'" the prosecutors said in a court filing in the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C. "He makes this claim despite having admitted his guilt, under oath, before two federal judges (including this Court)."

Flynn, President Trump's first national security adviser, pleaded guilty in 2017 to lying to investigators about conversations he had with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in late 2016 regarding sanctions and agreed to cooperate with special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation.
 
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Brian W

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Ah, if Whataboutism were only treated when an adult does it as we treat it when a six year old does it. The conservatives revel in victimhood even while they hold all the power. Fat, old babies.
 

DWPetros

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Today, the GOP has found out that they'll get what they say they want but which they've tried to deny - transparency.

The impeachment hearings will go public for everyone to see. The substance of the impeachment charges - that he used his Presidential powers to achieve personal gains - will be brought to light. The GOP will be on the spot to either defend Trump on those charges or not.

'Everyone does it!' - is all they have. Will the American public swallow that?
 

DWPetros

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What's happening here between the GOP and Dems is something new. There's a fundamental disagreement about what our laws actually mean and how they're followed. In our case - Trump and his followers in the GOP have decided that the Constitution and our laws don't need to be followed. They want the law to be what they want it to be.

In the following article - this is explained well. It's called 'Regime cleavage' - never heard of it before but as they say - its a Brave New World

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/31/regime-cleavage-229895

"Our regime cleavage has not yet hardened to the extent that it has in these countries, but if it does, it will not be possible to elect a president who can “end the mess in Washington” because both sides of the regime cleavage will argue that the other is illegitimate and undemocratic. Voters, understandably, will lose what faith they have left in the value of democracy itself. In the worst-case scenario, presidents and their supporters would be entirely unaccountable to Congress, while their opponents would reject the legitimacy of the presidency altogether."
 

Brian W

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There's a fundamental disagreement about what our laws actually mean and how they're followed.
I would say that there is nothing new in this. It is the slave power over and over again. It is one group of people that mouth words about freedom and justice, but really only mean freedom for me and slavery for you. The North fought the ACW not to free slaves but to prevent themselves from becoming slaves. The same choice is before us today--we can enforce our laws, or we can surrender to slavery for us, and freedom for the rich and powerful.

Everything conservatives rail against, they practice. Because, as posted elsewhere, conservativism means the law binds but does not protect you, while the law protects but does not bind conservatives. No true conservative will ever believe a conservative can break a law if they are doing something for conservatives. Because the law shouldn't bind them, only protect them.
 

TopT

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Everything conservatives rail against, they practice. Because, as posted elsewhere, conservativism means the law binds but does not protect you, while the law protects but does not bind conservatives. No true conservative will ever believe a conservative can break a law if they are doing something for conservatives. Because the law shouldn't bind them, only protect them.
I like that and pretty much believe that your statement has merits.
 

DWPetros

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Now that the 'It wasn't a Quid pro Quo' phase is ending - we're now entering the 'I did it, and so what?' phase.

And his sturdy athletic supporters are lined up to back him.

A quid pro quo is not illegal unless there is “corrupt intent” - says Sen. and faithful butt-sniffer Ted Cruz (R-Tex.)
 
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TopT

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Now that the 'It wasn't a Quid pro Quo' phase is ending - we're now entering the 'I did it, and so what?' phase.

And his sturdy athletic supporters are lined up to back him.

A quid pro quo is not illegal unless there is “corrupt intent” - says Sen. and faithful butt-sniffer Ted Cruz (R-Tex.)
They [Republicans] could care less. They will say whatever they have to and the suck ups will agree and in the next breathe will say HRC is a traitor.

DJT has not been cleared of anything yet and HRC has been investigated at least 11 times with absolutely zero charges.
 

DWPetros

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Meanwhile, in right-wing news, Trump is winning and victorious...

https://www.salon.com/2019/11/15/in-the-right-wing-media-universe-trump-is-winning-and-impeachment-is-a-joke/

'These people are fearfully misinformed, obviously. Trump is the most dishonest person in public life and lies to their faces every single day. Fox amplifies his lies and delivers more of their own in a constant feedback loop. As we continue down the path of impeachment over the next few weeks, it's clear that we won't just see Trump and his defenders batting back the accusations or spreading alternate conspiracy theories. They'll do that, of course. But from the looks of things they've decided to offer their viewers a full-blown alternate reality in which the impeachment process is actually an ignominious defeat for the "nerdy" Democrats and government officials and a triumph for the president, regardless of what is uncovered. '
 

Morbii

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It really baffles the imagination. It’s easier now to wrap my head around how Nazi Germany* came to be after seeing straight up propaganda and super obvious lies thrown out and gobbled up by a significant amount of people.

* not trying to invoke Godwin
 

Martin Mayers

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It really baffles the imagination. It’s easier now to wrap my head around how Nazi Germany* came to be after seeing straight up propaganda and super obvious lies thrown out and gobbled up by a significant amount of people.

* not trying to invoke Godwin
It's quite true though. I fell exactly the same (about goings on there and here).

Like...."NOW I get it"

Now I see how intelligent, cultured, people get suckered in by frauds.
 

RandyT0001

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Expose the fraud and they still believe. The difficulty will be nurturing those mislead individuals back to reality, away from the lies of the fraud(s).
 

von Marwitz

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It really baffles the imagination. It’s easier now to wrap my head around how Nazi Germany* came to be after seeing straight up propaganda and super obvious lies thrown out and gobbled up by a significant amount of people.
It's quite true though. I feel exactly the same (about goings on there and here).

Like...."NOW I get it"

Now I see how intelligent, cultured, people get suckered in by frauds.
My thoughts, too.

One of the questions I have pondered over for years and years is how does war function, i.e. why do people go to war in the literal sense when others tell them so, knowing that they will be the ones shot at while the ones telling them to go are not. I think I have a substantial part of this question figured out.

The other question - especially being a German - was how the Nazis and the Holocaust could happen and afterwards people are saying they 'didn't know'. I mean, millions of jews disappeared. Familiar neighbors weren't there any more. It is absolutely impossible for millions to be killed without the word getting out. Yet many claimed that they 'didn't know'.

I still believe that many knew and more had a hunch. I also believe that many later claimed not knowing because there would simply be no explanation/justification of supporting such a regime enacting a Holocaust otherwise.

Yet looking at what's going on around Trump in the US, I do believe that you can keep masses of people in an alternate reality defying facts, values, and morality. Some or even many honestly do believe. I lived in the US among Americans but it would have absolutely unthinkable back then for me that close to half could ever support a liar such as Trump. Or rather believe the lies that he really were the 'good guy'.

A couple of years ago I would have deemed that impossible. I would have thought that numerous fanatics would 'know' but not 'care'. But I would not have thought an alternate reality in the face of the facts possible on that grand scale.

Alas, by now I have come to the conclusion that not only significant parts or even the majority of a population can fall prey to alternate reality but also that this is a phenomenon, which is much less singular than one would believe:

Look at the example of Trump. Look at North Korea. Look at Nazi Germany. Look at the Holodomor in the Ukraine 1932/33 (Just finished reading an excellent but also deeply disturbing book on it: 'Red Famine' by Anne Applebaum).

As alternate reality is possible, so is the genuine shock and shame of those who fell prey to it and being unable to provide answers of how they could ever fall for it when the whole thing ultimately collides with 'real' reality and tumbles.

This should not serve as a general excuse for everyone, though. While alternate reality is possible, it always needs a significant number of people who see and know and support it nevertheless: The Republican Party and some very rich supporters of Trump. The nomenclatura in North Korea. The Nazi Party, administration and parts of the Wehrmacht and industry people in case of Nazi Germany. And the Communist Party and its organizations in the Ukraine.
 
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Sparafucil3

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One of the questions I have pondered over for years and years is how does war function, i.e. why do people go to war in the literal sense when others tell them so, knowing that they will be the ones shot at while the ones telling them to go are not. I think I have a substantial part of this question figured out.
The first step is to dehumanize your opposition. Then you get people afraid of them. Fear leads to hate, hate leads to anger, anger leads to suffering. I am concerned at the direction my country is heading. We are past hatred and well on our way to anger. -- jim
 

Martin Mayers

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I had a great history teacher and he, to an extent, summed it up for us in class far better than any book I had read. He asked us all if we had a 'nemesis'. That is, a person whom we despised. Who was at the centre of everything that went wrong for us. Of course everyone has someone of this ilk to some extent.

So, he explained, imagine someone comes along and says "I can get rid of your nemesis". One might say "but how". And that's the crux of the matter as the response will be "don't worry about that...just know that they'll come to no actual harm, but they'll be out of your life and never trouble you again".

Create that nemesis and you've basically cracked it. Many people will sign up to a deal that includes ridding one self of their nemesis.
 

Morbii

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Expose the fraud and they still believe. The difficulty will be nurturing those mislead individuals back to reality, away from the lies of the fraud(s).
I’ve been thinking about this indirectly for a few days now, spurned on by Bill’s comment about Chas likely not being serious. And while I agree it seemed that way, the problem is that we can no longer tell. I don’t know if he was serious or not.
 

Brian W

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Facing death, the elderly often lash out believing that the end of themselves should also be the end of the world. Every generation has a lot of people thinking that Armageddon is about to happen because they cannot accept a world in which they and their generation's toys aren't completely irrelevant.
 

DWPetros

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How this 'alternate reality' is caused in a mind is interesting. How people become convinced about the evil 'others' - to the degree that they will work to 'do the other in' is frightening.

Confining oneself to a limited source of information (ie. only watching Fox, only reading right-wing news, etc.) seems to be part of the reason as to how, but there are so many individual variables here (predisposition, psychological type, etc), propaganda alone doesn't quite seem to be the whole cause - but it is a big factor.
 
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