Impeachment

Martin Mayers

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And, because the staff is only as good as the leadership at the top. I imagine with this group in charge a war with Iran would end with the US occupied by Iranian militia.

WH accidentally sent Ukraine talking points to Democrats -- then tried to recall them

The White House accidentally emailed House Democrats a list of talking points Wednesday that were intended for Trump administration allies [i.e. FoxNews and conservative radio hosts--bmw] in response to the Ukraine scandal -- and then asked Democrats to send them back.

The mishap adds another surreal layer to Wednesday's swirl of events. A White House transcript of a July phone call between President Donald Trump and Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky reveals Trump's efforts to pressure his Ukrainian counterpart to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter, further ratcheting up talk among Democrats to conduct an impeachment investigation.
You guys might not have heard of him but there is a politician over here called Chris Grayling whom everything he touches he fucks up to the extent that he's the country's running joke right now when it comes to incompetent politicians.

I just want to check that you haven't employed him as some kind of advisor or IT Technician to the Republican Party ????

:)
 

Capt. Batguano

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Biden did call for the [Ukranian] AG to be fired along with the German govt, British govt., World Bank, IMF and a host of other Western governments. He was a crooked AG. That is what you call a fact. Were all of the countries/ monetary agencies in on the deal to help Biden's son?
Yup.




This is also a decent article from someone who wrote about it back in 2015

https://theintercept.com/2019/09/25/i-wrote-about-the-bidens-and-ukraine-years-ago-then-the-right-wing-spin-machine-turned-the-story-upside-down/
 

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DWPetros

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Your country, like the UK, is already pretty well torn apart. Starting with The Newt the right has pursued a scorched earth approach to advance their agenda and has dragged the US with them. The only way the US can get itself out of its current mess is by the utter political defeat of the right. The last few years should have proved to anyone with two brain cells that compromise with the right only results with them demanding then stealing more.
Spot on. Amazing a guy from the other side of the pond gets this stuff.
 

DWPetros

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Regarding Biden - what happened with him, his son, the Ukraine - is something I don't pretend to know the details of - and neither can anyone here. Nevertheless, I agree that what it appears he did or may have done is indeed more like parents goosing a college to admit their kid to college. What Trump apparently has done far exceeds this. Obviously.

The point I was trying to make, clumsily, is that the Biden issue (son being on board esp.) suggests pay-for-play and its now on full display for right-wingers to make hay out of. Personally, I think Biden wasn't entirely above board on this, but so what. Now that its out in the open, it will hurt his chances in the coming presidential race (duh).

No, I don't like Biden. Yes, I'd vote for him if it's him against Trump. Again, so what.

We don't live in a binary world. Things aren't black or white. Sometimes the good guys do selfish things. Sometimes the bad guys get away with their crimes.
 

TopT

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Regarding Biden - what happened with him, his son, the Ukraine - is something I don't pretend to know the details of - and neither can anyone here. Nevertheless, I agree that what it appears he did or may have done is indeed more like parents goosing a college to admit their kid to college.
yeah, yeah, except for the very inconvenient fact (for you) that EVERYONE that has investigated this has said there is no there, there. You puppet conspiracy theories as they suit your needs, DW (tRUMP)

If Hillary was the Democratic front runner you would be saying that Pizza gate was a legit concern too.
 

Sand Bar Bill

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It's always the same for the party of personal responsibility, when accused of anything turn it right back. Here, Trump accuses the whistleblower of treason.

“I want to know who’s the person, who’s the person who gave the whistleblower the information? Because that’s close to a spy,” he continued. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? The spies and treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-09-26/trump-at-private-breakfast-who-gave-the-whistle-blower-the-information-because-thats-almost-a-spy
 

DWPetros

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Good article this morning about Biden in the Intercept from the NYT journalist who originally investigated this whole thing : https://theintercept.com/2019/09/25/i-wrote-about-the-bidens-and-ukraine-years-ago-then-the-right-wing-spin-machine-turned-the-story-upside-down/

Reportedly, Biden didn't try to either get rid of the Ukrainian prosecutor, and arguably didn't set his son up for placement on the board of sleazy oligarchs. Apparently, Hunter Biden is a bit of a black sheep and its likely Hunter and the Ukrainians thought it advantageous to themselves unbeknownst to Biden Sr.

So, for lack of better sources, I retract my criticism of Biden on this particular issue involving Ukraine. So Top, at ease. You can now untwist your undies.
 

TopT

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So, for lack of better sources, I retract my criticism of Biden on this particular issue involving Ukraine. So Top, at ease. You can now untwist your undies.
My undies aren't twisted. That story was out there for months. You did not want to see the truth.
Politically, you are the Left's equivalent to the Tea Party. You will say or do whatever you think you need to in order to "win". You are nothing more than that.
I have told you before you act intellectually dishonest. You will twist the facts, omit the facts or just plain ignore them to suit your needs.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Spot on. Amazing a guy from the other side of the pond gets this stuff.
To me it's crystal clear and I wondered why. Part of it is the perspective of distance, but I didn't feel that was sufficient. After some thought I realised it was the Frog Boiling problem. Prior to Obama I had only a cursory interest in internal US politics. Sure there were comedic episodes like Clinton's cigar and Baby Bush's freezing on 9/11 and more tragic missteps like Iraq that did grab my attention. Obama's election I did take as another corner turned with regard to US racism. The racist reaction to Obama kept and strengthened my attention.

Because I had not been paying much attention, I had to catch up with the underlying forces and trends. Sort of like a time lapse film of a rotting tree stump. So while those in the US were like the mythical frog in the pot which was very, very slowly brought to he boil, I was the one dropped into the scalding water.

Disclaimer: I never boiled a frog, live or dead and the frog premise is likely false, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
 

DWPetros

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A really good article here: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/28/trump-impeachment-nixon-clinton-johnson-228754

'Turning to the past is understandable: A presidential impeachment cries out for historical context. The past is supposed to offer a map of sorts through what feels like an unfamiliar and treacherous adventure. But—as historians, ironically, are sometimes the first ones to point out—history isn’t actually a very good guide here. We’re in uncharted waters, and it’s best that we recognize that. '
 

Brian W

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I do not adore Doris Kearns Goodwin's work, but yesterday on MTP she explained a very trenchant fact.

They [the democrats in congress running the investigations] can't just throw around words like "abuse of power" or "violation of oath." They have to explain. It has to be a giant civics lesson to the country to understand why are these things such that these people had to feel the need to try and impeach him now before the election? And that's the story that has to be told. You have to be able - just like these people who are talking to you, if they're successful in, in making it clear that they think he should be impeached, somebody has to be able to tell a story to the person sitting next to them in the bar that has a beginning, a middle and an end. "This is why it had to be done." If they can't do that, and then it simply goes away is part of the Russia investigation, the country's going to be more divided than ever before.
She is quite right.

The story that needs to be explained has to be simple and unassailably true. When the republicans cannot obscurifate with questions about procedure, and only by complex tales involving George Soros they lose. Simplicity always defeats complexity in public opinion.

And it has to be unassailably true. Simplicity helps here, because the more complicated a story the easier it is to cast doubt upon. Strip the argument for impeachment down to its heart, down to the president's words and actions that are true. Show what he did, why he did it, and how he got caught. Short, sweet and as little conjecture as possible.
 

DWPetros

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She is quite right.
The story that needs to be explained has to be simple and unassailably true. When the republicans cannot obscurifate with questions about procedure, and only by complex tales involving George Soros they lose. Simplicity always defeats complexity in public opinion.
And it has to be unassailably true.
While I agree with the comment, what is right to one, is 'fake news' to another. How do you actually get facts or common sense across anymore to people who're so utterly propagandized, brainwashed, and otherwise captured in a cult-like condition? I don't think this is possible anymore, but would like to be wrong. Reasonable ideas have now only a limited audience.

The evidence says we have a large portion of the population that has gone completely round the bend. Is it even possible to reach them anymore?
 

Brian W

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A common subtle lie that the conservatives are pushing is that the democrats have been investigating Trump ever since he was elected. But, of course, the democrats controlled no parts of the federal government until nine months ago, and still only control one part of the legislative branch. Trump was being investigated by his own party and the apolitical (though republican controlled) Justice Department.

The media has picked up on the lie and always have a "but this has been going on for so long the American people are tired of it" bit in their commentary. It's a lie crafted by republicans and repeated enough to create the illusion that Trump is a victim.

Short, simple, fast. Subpoena all them mutherfukers, but don't follow white rabbits.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Below is something I posted about a week ago. That last video merely confirms the impressions I had got when catching up with US political trends. It's nice to get some figures/graphs to confirm what has been slapping one in the face.
Starting with The Newt the right has pursued a scorched earth approach to advance their agenda and has dragged the US with them. The only way the US can get itself out of its current mess is by the utter political defeat of the right. The last few years should have proved to anyone with two brain cells that compromise with the right only results with them demanding then stealing more.
 
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