Impeachment

Sparafucil3

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You are just as stuck and unmoveable on your own points in my opinion. And Citizens United would exist regardless of some "threat" that never occurred and never went anywhere in Congress.
I agree it takes a lot to move me off my opinions, but I have moved off some. I have also distanced myself from the current Republican party as I can't bring myself to support Trump or anyone who supports him. -- jim
 

Brian W

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So, the real question is - 'why did the voters in swing states who previously voted Dem - go over to Trump?'

There are reasons. And it's not Russia.
There are a lot of reasons, yes, and one of them was Russia. But those reasons were addressed by Trump: racism, fear, xenophobia. Populism. I don't want the democratic party to be a populist party like the republicans. I want it to be a progressive party.

The reverse side of those numbers is that 3m more people voted for the republican candidate, Trump, than voted for Romney.

And what lost HRC those votes was what she and her husband encouraged laws that ended up destroying black men's lives. It was African-Americans that didn't come out and vote for her, not white mid-westerners.
 

DWPetros

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There are a lot of reasons, yes, and one of them was Russia. But those reasons were addressed by Trump: racism, fear, xenophobia. Populism. I don't want the democratic party to be a populist party like the republicans. I want it to be a progressive party.

The reverse side of those numbers is that 3m more people voted for the republican candidate, Trump, than voted for Romney.

And what lost HRC those votes was what she and her husband encouraged laws that ended up destroying black men's lives. It was African-Americans that didn't come out and vote for her, not white mid-westerners.
OK, I would agree that we need more progressivism. Trump played the populist - and we can see where that landed us.

That HRC lost the swing states partly because of the low African-American voter turnout - that's a new one on me, but after looking into it - it appears to be one of the reasons why HRC lost there. Call it a combination of things I guess, including that she was painted with the same brush as her stumbling husband Bill.

Here's an article - the author is black and he voted for Trump. Revealing.

"Former President Bill Clinton's crime bill resulted in more blacks being sent to prison for non-violent crimes than during any other president's administration in our nation's history. Not only did he enforce and promote mass incarceration at that time, he went on to stand behind these policies for almost 20 years."

This was apparently part of Clinton's strategy to appease the right wing incarceration backers. The tough guys who just wanted more blacks behind bars. Like other corporate Dems, he was good at being a good liberal 'feeling your pain' type, but acted otherwise.

a good one by Thomas Frank: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/15/bill-clinton-crime-bill-hillary-black-lives-thomas-frank
 

von Marwitz

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I agree it takes a lot to move me off my opinions, but I have moved off some. I have also distanced myself from the current Republican party as I can't bring myself to support Trump or anyone who supports him. -- jim
I can attest to that. When Trump was not long in office, you said "Well, we'll see. It is too early to judge." By now, you have found your judgement as you point out above.
 

Brian W

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New revelations put Trump on shakier ground

New transcripts of witness testimony and news reports revealing key details on the Ukraine scandal timeline show in vivid detail the way President Donald Trump and top officials maneuvered behind the scenes to block aid to Ukraine as the President sought an investigation into his political rival Joe Biden. [. . .]
The President's claims of innocence looked even more incredulous Tuesday night after The New York Times reported that Trump released the hold on Ukraine aid after he was briefed on the whistleblower report outlining his dealings with Ukraine. [. . .]
First the timeline: We now know that White House budget office took its first official action to withhold $250 million in aid to Ukraine on the evening of July 25, according to a House Budget Committee summary of the office's documents. That was the very same day that Trump spoke by phone with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky, prefacing his request for an investigation of the 2016 election with the now infamous phrase "I would like you to do us a favor, though."
Agencies had been notified at a July 18 meeting that the aid had been frozen by the President, a week before the call.
 

DWPetros

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The sad thing is that this only matters to those who have sense enough to recognize it. Trump could be caught on tape ordering a hit on his opponents and it wouldn't matter to his followers.

Cults, cult leaders, cult followers - that's a whole different place where this doesn't really matter.
 

Sparafucil3

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I can attest to that. When Trump was not long in office, you said "Well, we'll see. It is too early to judge." By now, you have found your judgement as you point out above.
To be fair, that was my opinion of Trump as a President. Trump as an xenophobic, misogynistic, race-baiting, amoral ass-hat was well known to me at that time. It was among the reasons I did not vote for him. -- jim
 

DWPetros

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To be fair, that was my opinion of Trump as a President. Trump as an xenophobic, misogynistic, race-baiting, amoral ass-hat was well known to me at that time. It was among the reasons I did not vote for him. -- jim
Uh oh. This leads to a question - I wonder how many people and what kind of people voted for Trump who thought both things; 1) that he might make a good president, and 2) knowing full well that he was an immoral con-man and scoundrel?

How could anyone think a good president could also be an amoral liar, cheat, and 'amoral ass-hat'? You can't have it both ways, can you?
 

Sparafucil3

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Uh oh. This leads to a question - I wonder how many people voted for Trump who thought both things; 1) that he might make a good president, and 2) knowing full well that he was an immoral con-man and scoundrel?

How could anyone think a good president could also be an amoral ass-ho*e? You can't have it both ways, can you?
Was Kennedy a good president? He was pretty amoral. He cheated on his wife. His families fortune was made in part due to insider trading. I am sure John didn't fall too far from the tree.
Was Roosevelt a good president? His mistress was shuttled out the back door while his wife was brought to his lifeless body.
Clinton was a lying, cheating, womanizer himself. Was he a good president?
I guess if you "can't have it both ways", you suggest no. You should read Team of Rivals to see how Lincoln twisted arms, lied, cheated, traded graft and political favors to get the 13th Amendment passed. Given his amorality, do you contend Lincoln was a bad president? -- jim
 

Brian W

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back to the moral relativism of the right.
 

DWPetros

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Was Kennedy a good president? He was pretty amoral. He cheated on his wife. His families fortune was made in part due to insider trading. I am sure John didn't fall too far from the tree.
Was Roosevelt a good president? His mistress was shuttled out the back door while his wife was brought to his lifeless body.
Clinton was a lying, cheating, womanizer himself. Was he a good president? I guess if you "can't have it both ways", you suggest no. You should read Team of Rivals to see how Lincoln twisted arms, lied, cheated, traded graft and political favors to get the 13th Amendment passed. Given his amorality, do you contend Lincoln was a bad president? -- jim
I was waiting for that. I'm familiar with Kennedy's and Clinton's sexual indiscretions - at least as far as an ordinary person can be.

To answer your questions - Yes, Yes, Not so much, and Yes. To be a good person and president doesn't require purity or perfection. That's common sense. To think for one moment that Trump has the qualities needed to be a good man, much less a president, requires a complete lack of common sense. No need for details. No need for argument. You see it or you don't.
 

Sparafucil3

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To be a good person and president doesn't require purity or perfection. That's common sense. To think for one moment that Trump has the qualities needed to be a good man, much less a president, requires a complete lack of common sense. No need for details. No need for argument. You see it or you don't.
I saw it from the beginning. I am not sure you did. You're "you can have it both ways" leaves no room for negotiation. It's a "With us or against us" moment. I am still not sure you see it. Once a man is proven a liar, I don't know how you ever trust him but that's me.

Now, as to the specific case of Trump, back in 2015/2016, I didn't think he would be a good president personally. I didn't think he was even a good business man and the more I looked, the more I became to believe he had no moral compass. I didn't vote for him. I have since used support for him as a single issue for me. You support Trump, I won't support you. Once he became President, I withheld judgement as he was my President--like it or not--and he deserved a chance which was the source of my "too soon to tell" comment. Since then, I think he has been a bit of a train wreck. He has got far more wrong than he has right. I still don't support him. I still won't support anyone who supports him. I also think the idea of "irreparable damage" is over sold, but that may just be me. And if we cede "leadership" of the free world, I am OK with that. Someone else can take up the mantle and we can focus internally as so many others have done for so long. Again, that may just be me. -- jim
 

DWPetros

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I saw it from the beginning. I am not sure you did. You're "you can have it both ways" leaves no room for negotiation. It's a "With us or against us" moment. I am still not sure you see it. Once a man is proven a liar, I don't know how you ever trust him but that's me.

Now, as to the specific case of Trump, back in 2015/2016, I didn't think he would be a good president personally. I didn't think he was even a good business man and the more I looked, the more I became to believe he had no moral compass. I didn't vote for him. I have since used support for him as a single issue for me. You support Trump, I won't support you. Once he became President, I withheld judgement as he was my President--like it or not--and he deserved a chance which was the source of my "too soon to tell" comment. Since then, I think he has been a bit of a train wreck. He has got far more wrong than he has right. I still don't support him. I still won't support anyone who supports him. I also think the idea of "irreparable damage" is over sold, but that may just be me. And if we cede "leadership" of the free world, I am OK with that. Someone else can take up the mantle and we can focus internally as so many others have done for so long. Again, that may just be me. -- jim
I see. I understand the idea of letting someone prove they're a fool before you call them one. As for leadership of the free world, I agree there too, but now that such a title is based on money-getting vs. being a beacon of freedom and decency for the free world, I think we ceded that sometime ago. Around 2003 or so to my reckoning at least. Sadly, that was already lost before Trump.
 

Sparafucil3

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As for leadership of the free world, I agree there too, but now that such a title is based on money-getting vs. being a beacon of freedom and decency for the free world, I think we ceded that sometime ago. Around 2003 or so to my reckoning at least. Sadly, that was already lost before Trump.
We can argue some other time about whether we are the leaders or not. You can be a leader by example and not have to spend lives and treasure in the pursuit. I am tired of fixing the worlds problems while ignoring our own at home. -- jim
 

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We can argue some other time about whether we are the leaders or not. You can be a leader by example and not have to spend lives and treasure in the pursuit. I am tired of fixing the worlds problems while ignoring our own at home. -- jim
I am starting to lean towards this way but not in an isolationists kind of way. Help those who wish to help themselves while maintaining and preserving our alliances.
 

Sparafucil3

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I am starting to lean towards this way but not in an isolationists kind of way. Help those who wish to help themselves while maintaining and preserving our alliances.
I wouldn't want to abandon allies either, but neither would I continue to base nearly as much as we do overseas. I can see some need for overseas basing, but I would be hard pressed to continue to choose that over say a national healthcare system. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

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Nevertheless you might want to take into consideration that some of these are connected.
No doubt some are. There are always consequences and unintended consequences. -- jim
 

Brian W

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"I'm a leader. I've always been a leader. I've never had any problem leading people. If I say do it, they're going to do it. That's what leadership is all about."
 
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