Impeachment defenses

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,394
Reaction score
3,376
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
To add to what TopT posted, remember that literally hours after the Access Hollywood pussygate tape came out, the first of the DNC hacks were released. The pussygate tape was the one thing that did most to damage Spanky's election bid and the DNC leaks neutralised that to a good extent. So Russia did have a strong effect in 2016.
 

Sparafucil3

Elder Member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,213
Reaction score
1,842
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
(Almost) free college is not a pipe dream in Germany. If we can do it, so could the US if it really wanted to.

von Marwitz
Free college for all or do you have to test in and then it is (mostly) free? -- jim

EDIT to add: Germany also has a much better acceptance of non-college professions. Sadly, people view non-college professions with some level of scorn in the US. Mike Rowe has done a good job trying to change that perception, but there is a long way to go.
 

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,203
Reaction score
1,178
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
Sadly, people view non-college professions with some level of scorn in the US.
And you base that on some kind of evidence aside from typical republican rumor and Moscow lies?
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
9,859
Reaction score
3,089
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
Free college for all or do you have to test in and then it is (mostly) free? -- jim
Our school system is a bit different from that in the US:

Elementary from 1st to 4th grade for all.

Afterwards, the kids split up to "Hauptschule" (5th to 9th) or to "Realschule" (5th to 10th) or to "Gymnasium" (5th to 13th). In reality, it is a bit more complicated, of course. A bit more than 50% qualify for Gymnasium. When you graduate from "Gymnasium" with "Abitur" after 13th grade, this qualifies you for university.

Depending on what you want to study, the requirement is an "Abitur" with a certain Grade Point Average. If you do not have that, you are in for some semesters of waiting. Besides some comparably small fees per semester (might amount to a few hundred Euros), university is free for your first vocational education for a certain time in which one is normally required to finish one's studies. You will have to come up for material (stationary, books, etc.), your living quarters, food, etc. yourself. But for those from a background who cannot afford all the latter, there can be subsidies that will allow you to cover that cost if you also earn some money by a side job on top of that. A small faction of these subsidies is to be paid back to the state upon completion of one's studies.

In reality, there are some more options. You can switch from Hauptschule to Realschule to Gymnasium if your grades are good enough. Besides university, there are so called "Fachhochschulen" who combine academic education with training in a company (Duale Berufsausbildung / alternance).
 

Sparafucil3

Elder Member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,213
Reaction score
1,842
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
And you base that on some kind of evidence aside from typical republican rumor and Moscow lies?
I would hardly call Mike Rowe a Russian. Maybe it's the thousands of jobs that go un-claimed in this country. But I gather if I were to say anything, you would find reason to dispute it. -- jim

Edit to add: Perhaps Mike Rowe says it better.

 
Last edited:

Sparafucil3

Elder Member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,213
Reaction score
1,842
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Our school system is a bit different from that in the US:

Elementary from 1st to 4th grade for all.

Afterwards, the kids split up to "Hauptschule" (5th to 9th) or to "Realschule" (5th to 10th) or to "Gymnasium" (5th to 13th). In reality, it is a bit more complicated, of course. A bit more than 50% qualify for Gymnasium. When you graduate from "Gymnasium" with "Abitur" after 13th grade, this qualifies you for university.

Depending on what you want to study, the requirement is an "Abitur" with a certain Grade Point Average. If you do not have that, you are in for some semesters of waiting. Besides some comparably small fees per semester (might amount to a few hundred Euros), university is free for your first vocational education for a certain time in which one is normally required to finish one's studies. You will have to come up for material (stationary, books, etc.), your living quarters, food, etc. yourself. But for those from a background who cannot afford all the latter, there can be subsidies that will allow you to cover that cost if you also earn some money by a side job on top of that. A small faction of these subsidies is to be paid back to the state upon completion of one's studies.

In reality, there are some more options. You can switch from Hauptschule to Realschule to Gymnasium if your grades are good enough. Besides university, there are so called "Fachhochschulen" who combine academic education with training in a company (Duale Berufsausbildung / alternance).
So you screen for aptitude. That makes sense. I wonder, do you adjust scores for "Abitur" based on some outside influence (race, color, religion, etc) in order to balance your admittance or is it purely merit-based?

We have no equivalent of "Fachhochschulen" although some unions and employers will offer to teach a trade but generally speaking, don't offer much in the way of education outside the trade. -- jim
 

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,203
Reaction score
1,178
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
But I gather if I were to say anything, you would find reason to dispute it.
Because you don't believe in facts, only pundit opinions. Give me a poll where Americans when asked said that college educated professions were "better" than non-college educated professions, and compare it with similar polls given to Germans. Give me evidence or stop making unsubstantiated claims about how you "feel" Americans think compared to Germans.

You know, I've never seen it studied, but I just know that republicans are mostly rat-fuckers. And if you disagree with me, well, it's just because you're a secret rat-fucker too. Who needs evidence, or logic? It's enough to know that anyone that doubts my feeling is just a closeted rat-fucker.
 

Sparafucil3

Elder Member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,213
Reaction score
1,842
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Because you don't believe in facts, only pundit opinions. Give me a poll where Americans when asked said that college educated professions were "better" than non-college educated professions, and compare it with similar polls given to Germans. Give me evidence or stop making unsubstantiated claims about how you "feel" Americans think compared to Germans.

You know, I've never seen it studied, but I just know that republicans are mostly rat-fuckers. And if you disagree with me, well, it's just because you're a secret rat-fucker too. Who needs evidence, or logic? It's enough to know that anyone that doubts my feeling is just a closeted rat-fucker.
You need a hug? -- jim
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
9,859
Reaction score
3,089
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
So you screen for aptitude. That makes sense. I wonder, do you adjust scores for "Abitur" based on some outside influence (race, color, religion, etc) in order to balance your admittance or is it purely merit-based?

We have no equivalent of "Fachhochschulen" although some unions and employers will offer to teach a trade but generally speaking, don't offer much in the way of education outside the trade. -- jim
The Abitur is purely merit-based.

As schools are within the competence of each state and not under federal law, there is some debate if a certain Grade Point Average in one state is the exact equivalent of that in another, because some states allow more funding for schools or apply a somewhat different system than others.

Besides that, it is of course easier for kids originating from educated or academic backgrounds to reach Abitur than for those educationally disadvantaged. But this is rather a social issue rather than that of Abitur or other educational attainment.

"Fachhochschulen" are a place which are actually a mixture of learning a trade and academic education. Those who do not have Abitur will be able to learn trades without academic education. That usually happens in part on the job in a company and a certain number of days/hours per week in a vocational training school until one reaches certification for one's trade. If you advance in your trade to become a "master craftsman" (i.e. one certified to run/manage a trade business rather than merely being an employee), this would again open up the option for you to attempt an academic education as a follow up.

So basically, from any kind of school, if your grades and qualifications are good enough, you may advance to some higher sort of school/education later which might eventually open up your way for academic education. By far the most usual way/prerequisite for an academic education would be the Abitur, though. Not all with Abitur follow an academic education though. Some follow trades after Abitur.
 

Sparafucil3

Elder Member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,213
Reaction score
1,842
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
The Abitur is purely merit-based.

As schools are within the competence of each state and not under federal law, there is some debate if a certain Grade Point Average in one state is the exact equivalent of that in another, because some states allow more funding for schools or apply a somewhat different system than others.

Besides that, it is of course easier for kids originating from educated or academic backgrounds to reach Abitur than for those educationally disadvantaged. But this is rather a social issue rather than that of Abitur or other educational attainment.

"Fachhochschulen" are a place which are actually a mixture of learning a trade and academic education. Those who do not have Abitur will be able to learn trades without academic education. That usually happens in part on the job in a company and a certain number of days/hours per week in a vocational training school until one reaches certification for one's trade. If you advance in your trade to become a "master craftsman" (i.e. one certified to run/manage a trade business rather than merely being an employee), this would again open up the option for you to attempt an academic education as a follow up.

So basically, from any kind of school, if your grades and qualifications are good enough, you may advance to some higher sort of school/education later which might eventually open up your way for academic education. By far the most usual way/prerequisite for an academic education would be the Abitur, though. Not all with Abitur follow an academic education though. Some follow trades after Abitur.
Thanks for that. I believe there is a lot of merit in this approach. -- jim
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
9,859
Reaction score
3,089
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
Not from a rat-fucker like yourself. I don't want the plague.
o_O All right - I know this is the political section. But do we need this? No.

I just got my second "reprimand" by the mods in close to 10,000 posts in nine years because I used the word "bull****" - make that cattle droppings or cow dung - in the non-political section. While that might seem a bit over the top, despite hard contrary opinions in this section, we could use a bit more restraint right here.
 

RandyT0001

Senior Member
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 5, 2016
Messages
526
Reaction score
382
Location
Memphis, TN
First name
Cary
Country
llUnited States
o_O All right - I know this is the political section. But do we need this? No.

I just got my second "reprimand" by the mods in close to 10,000 posts in nine years because I used the word "bull****" - make that cattle droppings or cow dung - in the non-political section. While that might seem a bit over the top, despite hard contrary opinions in this section, we could use a bit more restraint right here.
More civility would be appreciated by all I do believe. Argue the discussion points or your emotions and opinions but refrain from calling each other names, even in the political section. Personal assaults upon others outside of the political section are grounds for moderation. With the discord in politics around the globe, let us try to remain polite and civil.
 

Sand Bar Bill

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
570
Reaction score
435
Location
Putin's backyard
Country
llUnited States
The president of the United States extorted a foreign country to dig up dirt for the president’s personal gain. His personal lawyer spent months on this task. The ambassador to this country was fired for refusing to help out. Diplomats were subverted to make clear what the president’s demands were. The evidence for all this is voluminous and clear.

Apparently the key defense of Trump at this point is not that he’s innocent, but that extorting foreign countries for personal gain is really not that big a deal for a president of the United States.
 

Mister T

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
3,745
Reaction score
1,109
Location
Bruxelles
Country
llFrance
So you screen for aptitude. That makes sense. I wonder, do you adjust scores for "Abitur" based on some outside influence (race, color, religion, etc) in order to balance your admittance or is it purely merit-based?
Your attempt to criticise affirmative action by referring to Germany is flawed as conditions are different. As social spending is more developed in Europe, it contributes to more even learning conditions making affirmative action policies far less relevant. In the absence of such equalisation systems in the US, and despite their limits, these affirmative actions policies are a satisfactory second-best to start correcting well-entrenched inequalities that lasted for centuries.
 

Sparafucil3

Elder Member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
9,213
Reaction score
1,842
Location
USA
First name
Jim
Country
llUnited States
Your attempt to criticise affirmative action by referring to Germany is flawed as conditions are different. As social spending is more developed in Europe, it contributes to more even learning conditions making affirmative action policies far less relevant. In the absence of such equalisation systems in the US, and despite their limits, these affirmative actions policies are a satisfactory second-best to start correcting well-entrenched inequalities that lasted for centuries.
I am not trying to criticize anything. I am trying to understand. Having said that, Germany may be better, but it isn't utopia yet. Maybe it's better in Italy? Nope. France is forward thinking though. Europe has made significant progress. The US has too. We (the US) still have a ways to go. We all do. -- jim
 
Top