Immobilzed/recalled AFV in Bypass

[MajorDomo]

An immobilized, recalled (Big Stun), stopped HT (with a disabled 37L MA to boot) in Bypass of a building is holding an 8-0/247 in Melee.

Pretty sure the crew must abandon the HT in its movement phase and does not need to exit the board.

I believe the crew remains in bypass for any Defensive First Fire, then it is in the building.

My question is whether the 247/8-0 in Melee loses its Melee counter and can TPBF at the abandoning crew with a -2 for hazardous movement but with a +1 for the vehicle? Since it is my crew, I fear the answer yes, but does this all sound correct.

Thanks,

Rich

 

[jrv]

From the Q&A:

A11.15, D2.3, & D5.6 If a stationary vehicle in bypass of a hex containing only enemy infantry who are already held in Melee is destroyed by a direct fire attack is there a crew survival roll? If so, does the crew go immediately into Melee or are they marked only with a CC counter? If they are marked only with a CC counter, is there an opportunity for the defending infantry to TPBF on the crew? Also, if they are placed in Melee, would the Hazardous Movement -2 DRM apply to them (only) on any subsequent attacks on the Melee that turn?
A. The crew may survive and would go immediately into Melee, subject to Hazardous Movement.

Based on this I would say the abandoning crew maintains the Melee. Outside units could fire in with FFNAM applying but not Hazardous Movement. Hazardous Movement applies to crew survival (as in the Q&A), but not to abandonment.

JR

 

[jrv]

As best I read, if any unconcealed unit enters a Melee Location, it immediately enters Melee. That would cover, in addition to the above, things like Human Wave & Berserk. But it's sort of vague in the rules.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

This had happened to me a while back and IIRC the crew immediately entered Melee. After just reviewing the pertinent rules (I believe), I stand by that result as well. In other words, the unit currently in Melee with the ht would NOT be able to fire at the crew as it abandoned the ht and entered a condition of Melee (though the crew is not considered a Melee unit until attacked in Melee-I think) as the crew maintained the Melee as soon as it became infantry. The actual status as a Melee unit is a little unclear as it had been attacked in CC previously, but it had not been held in Melee until it became infantry. The application of Hazardous Movement is pretty clearly laid out as only occurring for a cs/CS situation and not movement caused by abandoning the vehicle unless that movement was caused by the immob. TC (D5.5). Also, you are correct that the crew would not be forced to exit the playing area unless called for by an SSR.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

As best I read, if any unconcealed unit enters a Melee Location, it immediately enters Melee.

It would not automatically be in Melee when it enters.

Q&A:
A11.15
If a unit enters/advances into a location that contains a Melee counter, is that unit considered part of that Melee immediately upon entry or after the CCPh?
A. After the CCPh.

 

[Larry]

The crew abandoning the vehicle is entering or advancing into the location. It is changing its status from part of the AFV to not part of the AFV. Might be worth a nuanced question to MMP.

 

[Vinnie]

Given JRs quote on a surviving crew going straight into Melee and the fact the crew is not entering from another location, I think he would go straight into melee. Might be worth s question though just to be clear.

 

[Vinnie]

If the vehicle has moved in this turn, then I think Klas' q&a would rule.

 

[Binchois]

If the vehicle has moved in this turn, then I think Klas' q&a would rule.

Could be...Or the two Q&As could describe a difference between abandonment and survival. "Abandonment" equaling a form of movement into the Location and "Survival" being a continuation of the already existing, vehicle-vs-infantry Melee.

I agree that there should be a Q&A asking if there really should be a difference - otherwise, these Q&As appear contradict in this situation. The relevant passages in the RB seem to be these:

A11.15 MELEE: If Infantry of both sides remain in the same Location after all initial CC attacks have been resolved at the end of a CCPh, they [EXC: bicyclists, skiers] are considered to be locked in Melee and may not leave that Location or attack except as part of CC.15 Infantry are also held in Melee by enemy Cavalry, cyclists, and non-Abandoned, Stopped, "unbroken" (12.1) vehicles.​

A11.71 OTHER WITHDRAWAL FROM CC: Passengers/Riders of Immobile vehicles are held in Melee, but Cavalry, cyclists, skiers, and Passengers/Riders of Mobile vehicles who survive their initial round of CC are not required to remain in Melee. These units may dismount during their next MPh and remain in Melee without their prior handicap, as may Passengers/Riders of Immobile vehicles, or they may move out of the Melee Location in their mounted mode normally during their next MPh. Should they dismount, their form of conveyance remains with them and is subject to capture [EXC: A Mobile vehicle can still move out of the Melee Location and a manned AFV is never subject to capture]. Whenever any of the ATTACKER's units leave a Melee Location, he must declare whether any units will remain behind to preserve the Melee. Should no friendly units remain behind to keep the enemy in Melee, those enemy units are freed from Melee and may Defensive First Fire on the moving units.​

and maybe:

A3.8 CLOSE COMBAT PHASE (CCPh): Units of both sides occupying the same Location resolve their CC attacks; any survivors which have not withdrawn are considered in Melee. The ATTACKER places a "?" counter on any of his eligible unconcealed units as per 12.12-.122. Remove all TI/Pin counters. Flip CC counters over to Melee side or remove them.​

One question I have is whether the Melee still exists at the instant the vehicle is abandoned. It seems to me that the correct ruling should be Klas's Q&A regardless of whether the crew "survives" a wreck or abandons the vehicle - since Melee would be briefly over when the vehicle is destroyed/left. However, where in the RB does it state (besides A3.8) the moment when Melee counters should be removed?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The crew abandoning the vehicle is entering or advancing into the location. It is changing its status from part of the AFV to not part of the AFV.

Is is already in the Location - it is not entering it.

Might be worth a nuanced question to MMP.

Given the Q&A that jrv posted above saying an Inherent crew going directly into Melee if it survives a CS DR, and I find it unlikely that a Q&A about when a crew Abandons the vehicle would return a different answer.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

One question I have is whether the Melee still exists at the instant the vehicle is abandoned. It seems to me that the correct ruling should be Klas's Q&A regardless of whether the crew "survives" a wreck or abandons the vehicle - since Melee would be briefly over when the vehicle is destroyed/left. However, where in the RB does it state (besides A3.8) the moment when Melee counters should be removed?

The Melee is not briefly over - the crew (whether it survives a CS DR or abandons) goes directly into Melee with the enemy. Per the Q&A the case of surviving a CS DR is resolved, and it isn't likely abandonment would be judged to be any different.

 

[jrv]

The Melee is not briefly over - the crew (whether it survives a CS DR or abandons) goes directly into Melee with the enemy. Per the Q&A the case of surviving a CS DR is resolved, and it isn't likely abandonment would be judged to be any different.

I agree; I wouldn't think that MMP would rule differently for crew survival and abandonment.

JR

 

[MajorDomo]

Thanks guys, that one was a difficult one to figure out.

Rich

 

[bendizoid]

I hope that crew kicks butt.

 

[MajorDomo]

I hope that crew kicks butt.

He actually is important as he will enter a VC building hex, containing an enemy French 8-0 and 247.

Freezing them will allow another German HS to move up and join the Melee.

Rich

 

[pwashington]

It would not automatically be in Melee when it enters.

Q&A:
A11.15
If a unit enters/advances into a location that contains a Melee counter, is that unit considered part of that Melee immediately upon entry or after the CCPh?
A. After the CCPh.

Want to make sure I'm understanding the Q&A (have I been playing this wrong?). Can it be stated another way that a unit that enters/advances into a Melee Location won't be counted in the CC odds determination until the next CC phase (end of the next player turn)?

 

[von Marwitz]

Given the Q&A that jrv posted above saying an Inherent crew going directly into Melee if it survives a CS DR, and I find it unlikely that a Q&A about when a crew Abandons the vehicle would return a different answer.

That would be my best guess, too. I also think it make sense.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

Want to make sure I'm understanding the Q&A (have I been playing this wrong?). Can it be stated another way that a unit that enters/advances into a Melee Location won't be counted in the CC odds determination until the next CC phase (end of the next player turn)?

No. The unit will be able to attack/be attacked in CC. Being in Melee is not a requirement for attacking/being attacked in CC. A unit that enters during the MPh (e.g. Berserk, Human Wave) does not immediately enter into Melee and so can, for instance, fire in the AFPh.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

I guess my follow on question would then be: Would the crew abandoning (even via CS) the vehicle be considered a Melee Unit for subsequent fire at the Melee location prior to the conduct of the ensuing CCPh? The crew obviously had not been held in Melee prior to that abandonment as it hadn't been attacked as infantry (A11.15) nor had it been in an immobile vehicle at the end of a CCPh previously. My initial thought is that it would not be subject to such fire and as jrv has intimated, be able to fire at TPBF halved during the ensuing AFPh.

 

[jrv]

No, I think it enters Melee immediately. It can be fired out from outside the Melee, with the FFNAM DRM applying to it.

JR