Immobilisation MP Question

[RaphaelC]

Hello All,

A German PzIIIF has used 11 of its 14MP to manoeuvre in bypass to CAFP 4x1-y1-x0 where it has been immobilised.

As the stop is entirely involuntary, are its remaining 5MP lost entirely, or considered spent in Delay in its current position?

Many Thanks,

Raphael

 

[Blackcloud6]

I think your answer lies in D2.1 near the end of the rule: "A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex." I checked D8 and there is no mention of remaining MPs in that rules so i would say yes to question, the MPs are spent in that hex. Note the D8.5 says an immobilized vehicle may still expend MP for non-movement purposes.

 

[Binchois]

I think your answer lies in D2.1 near the end of the rule: "A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex."

Definitely THIS. A vehicle that moves must expend all of its MPs one way or another.

Also, remember D8.4:

D8.4 TARGET STATUS: A vehicle bogged/immobilized during a MPh due to having entered-a-new-hex/used-VBM/been-in-Motion in that MPh is considered a moving target (C.8) for the rest of that MPh.​

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A vehicle that moves must expend all of its MPs one way or another.

There are some exceptions though, e.g., stun, shock, IIRC.

 

[RaphaelC]

Thank you both for such a quick and comprehensive answer.

Regards,

Raphael

 

[RaphaelC]

There are some exceptions though, e.g., stun, shock, IIRC.

So, does this still mean that even if the AFV in question 'may not fire, move or expend MP for any reason during the remainder of that player turn' (D5.34) the remaining MP are still counted as having been used in its current location?

Regards,

Raphael

 

[Binchois]

So, does this still mean that even if the AFV in question 'may not fire, move or expend MP for any reason during the remainder of that player turn' (D5.34) the remaining MP are still counted as having been used in its current location?

Regards,

Raphael

Hmmm... Klas has thrown a wrench into my thinking:

Klas is correct that a Stunned vehicle can no longer expend any MPs:

D5.34 A Stunned AFV may not fire...or expend MP for any reason during the remainder of that Player Turn, and immediately Stops (no Stop MP is spent) if moving/in-Motion.​

But is expending MPs different than using them?

D2.1 A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex.​

I don't see any additional thoughts under the rules regarding an Immobilized vehicle, but there is a bit more (seemingly irrelevant) information under Shocked:

C7.42 A shocked AFV may not move (even to pivot or change TCA), Interdict, or attack (even in CC). No MP expenditure is necessary to bring the shocked AFV to an automatic halt. However, any ensuing First Fire or DFPh attacks vs a shocked AFV that had entered a new hex during that Player Turn are still subject to applicable To Hit DRM cases.​

It really seems wrong that Shocked, Stunned, or Immobilized results should be treated differently in this regard. But does the RB mean to say that these results prevent the vehicle from expending any more MPs (though any remaining MPs do get "used"....), or does it mean to say that these results prevent the vehicle from expending any more MPs (which therefore do not get used at all)?

At the moment, I think D2.1 is saying the former. Any thoughts Forumites?

P.S. perhaps the solution is that defensive fire can only occur on MF/MPs expended, so any left-over MPs that are "used" as per D2.1 are moot for defensive fire purposes? Doesn't seem right either...! Boy, I can really overthink things sometimes!

 

[Eagle4ty]

So, does this still mean that even if the AFV in question 'may not fire, move or expend MP for any reason during the remainder of that player turn' (D5.34) the remaining MP are still counted as having been used in its current location?

Regards,

Raphael

No, IIRC D5.34 stands as read and no additional MPs are spent for ANY purpose (including a Stop MP as noted) if a stun/STUN result is incurred. I'm not so sure as to the reasoning behind a vehicle not expending its remaining MPs when SHOCKED as well other than C7.42 denotes it ceases movement immediately and even a Stop MP isn't spent therefore possibly implying that no additional MPs are spent either. However, it is queer to note that in the same rule it does allow passengers/rides a possibility of dismounting in their MPh (though I think there is a Q&A that infers this is their next/or subsequent MPh).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IIRC, if vehicle suffers stun, shock, or bog its MPh ends. Whereas if if becomes Immobilized it must spend any remaining MP.

 

[von Marwitz]

IIRC, if vehicle suffers stun, shock, or bog its MPh ends. Whereas if if becomes Immobilized it must spend any remaining MP.

That's my take, too.

von Marwitz

 

[Binchois]

IIRC, if vehicle suffers stun, shock, or bog its MPh ends. Whereas if if becomes Immobilized it must spend any remaining MP.

I can accept this as it all seems to be what's stated in the RB. But has this ever been "officially" verified? Or can anyone offer reasoning why Immobization can incur extra defensive fire opportunities whereas Stun/Shock/Bog brings the vehicle's MPh to an abrupt halt? One way or another, it seems like they should all be treated the same...

Regardless, I am glad to know this distinction exists. Thanks.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

There are certainly some QA on the subject. Personally I think the rules are pretty clear on the matter, ymmv.

 

[RaphaelC]

Thanks All,

A consensus that I am happy to go along with.

 

[Eagle4ty]

As an adjunct, when a vehicle is Bogged you may NOT use Bounding First Fire (C5.31-.33) as that occurs during a vehicle's MPh and as per D8.21 as soon as it bogs its MPH has ended. However, a vehicle immobilized during its MPh may Bounding First Fire immediately after the MP spent which resulted in the immobilization and may be able to continue to fire after each delay MP spent up to the limit of his MP allotment or until Intensive Fired/Gun Malfunction [EXC: If immobilized because of a failed ESB attempt (only), no extra MP are taken into account as he has failed in the attempt to gain those MPs].

 

[jrv]

EXC: If immobilized because of a failed ESB attempt (only), no extra MP are taken into account as he has failed in the attempt to gain those MPs

This assumes the ESB DR is made after all MP have been spent. The ESB DR can be made at any point during the MPh, so the ESB DR could be made before any (normal) MP have been spent. The vehicle does not get the ESB MPs of course but still has normal MP to burn.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

The ESB DR can be made at any point during the MPh, so the ESB DR could be made before any (normal) MP have been spent. The vehicle does not get the ESB MPs of course but still has normal MP to burn.

JR

Indeed.

And in some cases it is a good idea to make the ESB DR before you have spent all your (normal) MP:

Usually, you go for ESB if you need some vehicle somewhere badly. That means, if it immobilizes on its ESB DR, this is normally a major setback. And your vehicle will typically be out of position to bring its weapons to bear or in harms way after it has spent its last (normal) MP but before the ESB MP are spent.

Unless you need the surprise effect of the ESB manouver, you might as well get some control over where your vehicle is going to immobilize in case of ESB failure. There might be some positions along its path, where the vehicle can still be of good use later in the game even if immoblized as opposed to being totally useless in a spot where it can't see/affect anything. In such cases, you would make the ESB attempt in a Location before having spent all of its (normal) MP.

von Marwitz