I'm confused on Rout Phase Desicion

[Uriah Jones]

Hi All,

Here is the situation at the start of British Rout Phase.

View attachment 51238

Here is my question. Where does the British squad in W6 declare as rout destination? Nearest in MF (not towards KEU) is Z7 (5MF), next is U3 (6MF). Does the squad have to attempt to reach Z7? Either by routing there, possibly to have the IJA player reveal a KEU and be forced to continue routing, and possible interdiction in Z6; or low crawl. Are those the only options?

Sorry, basic question I know and I'm inclined to think that this is correct. But it just seems so much more 'common sense' to rout AWAY from the enemy to U3.

Uriah

 

[Sparafucil3]

Is that a level 3 hex the Gun is in? If it is, Z7 is ignorable and U2 becomes your target. Is there an LOS to the Final Fired unit? If so, W6 is closer and you can't rout through that hex. It also means you can't rout through W7. If there is an LOS to the Gun, you can't rout through X5 either. Since you are in OG and normal range of the Gun, you must rout or be eliminated for failure to rout. Since you have no path, you are eliminated. So much of this answer depends on those things which I can't tell from looking at your image here. -- jim

 

[Randy Strader]

I think the Gun you are referring to in 61CC6 is an Acquisition marker. That whole area is lvl2. There are no IJA units on the hill to the right. U8 does have LOS to the broken, DMed unit in question. HTH.

 

[Sparafucil3]

I think the Gun you are referring to in 61CC6 is an Acquisition marker. That whole area is lvl2. There are no IJA units on the hill to the right. U8 does have LOS to the broken, DMed unit in question. HTH.

So you are correct, Z7 is your destination. The rules say as long as you can reach that destination in one Rout Phase, you don't need to take the shortest path. As such, declare Z7 as your destination, first move is to X6 where you must act SHOCKED to find an enemy unit. Z7 is no longer your Rout Destination and you refigure your rout from that point, having spent 2 MF's. Your new destination becomes U3 and you head that way as far as you can. At least, that's how I see it. -- jim

 

[Randy Strader]

As such, declare Z7 as your destination, first move is to X6 where you must act SHOCKED to find an enemy unit. Z7 is no longer your Rout Destination and you refigure your rout from that point, having spent 2 MF's. Your new destination becomes U3 and you head that way as far as you can. At least, that's how I see it. -- jim

Thanks. I tend to agree, but think they would have to suffer Interdiction when moving up, inasmuch as there are units also on lvl2 and as such the first 2MF up would be to OG (in the FFMO sense), correct?

 

[Sparafucil3]

Thanks. I tend to agree, but think they would have to suffer Interdiction when moving up, inasmuch as there are units also on lvl2 and as such the first 2MF up would be to OG (in the FFMO sense), correct?

Yes, I believe so. -- jim

 

[Uriah Jones]

Thanks for the responses all!

So it seems there is some agreement that Z7 is the destination. But the route could be either X6 => recalculate, or X5, Y6, Z6, Z7 right? Going around the hill seems legit to me as well. Not to say that is better, but possible.

 

[Pyth]

Thanks for the responses all!

So it seems there is some agreement that Z7 is the destination. But the route could be either X6 => recalculate, or X5, Y6, Z6, Z7 right? Going around the hill seems legit to me as well. Not to say that is better, but possible.

If you end in Z7 your opponent can reveal an adjacent concealed unit and eliminate your brokie for failure to rout... so that seems like a bad way to go. Risking intediction is chancy... if the interdiction pins him, he is eliminated for failure to rout. I think best rout is a low crawl into X5.

 

[Tom Nelson]

Folks, Once again, I plead ignorance of the proper rules!? My little group of inbred ASL players once again appear ignorant of the rules. If the routing units rolls a seven and pins, why would it be eliminated for failure to rout? If the routing and interdicted British unit rolls more than seven it would half squad, rather than be eliminated. Right? I do agree that low crawl is the proper solution in this situation, however. Tom

 

[Robin Reeve]

Folks, Once again, I plead ignorance of the proper rules!? My little group of inbred ASL players once again appear ignorant of the rules. If the routing units rolls a seven and pins, why would it be eliminated for failure to rout? If the routing and interdicted British unit rolls more than seven it would half squad, rather than be eliminated. Right? I do agree that low crawl is the proper solution in this situation, however. Tom

If the unit pins while ADJACENT to a suddenly revealed enemy unit, it is eliminated.
Not just because it pins, but because it finishes its RtPh ADJACENT to a KEU.

 

[jrv]

Folks, Once again, I plead ignorance of the proper rules!? My little group of inbred ASL players once again appear ignorant of the rules. If the routing units rolls a seven and pins, why would it be eliminated for failure to rout? If the routing and interdicted British unit rolls more than seven it would half squad, rather than be eliminated. Right? I do agree that low crawl is the proper solution in this situation, however.

Depending on the circumstance, low crawl may not be appropriate. If a low-crawling unit will be surrounded and die in the next turn for instance, regular rout with interdiction may be the right choice. At least you have a chance of getting the unit back.

A unit may be eliminated if it pins in the wrong place during rout if the place it pins is not an acceptable final destination. The only thing that comes to mind is if it pins adjacent to a KEU. That might happen if it routs off a KEU that entered its hex (e.g. a vehicle) or that might happen if it is forced to rout from a location where it doesn't have LOS to a location adjacent to a KEU. The KEU might also be concealed/HIP until the broken unit pins next to it, then reveal itself.

JR

 

[Pyth]

Folks, Once again, I plead ignorance of the proper rules!? My little group of inbred ASL players once again appear ignorant of the rules. If the routing units rolls a seven and pins, why would it be eliminated for failure to rout? If the routing and interdicted British unit rolls more than seven it would half squad, rather than be eliminated. Right? I do agree that low crawl is the proper solution in this situation, however. Tom

Hi Tom. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Swiftandsure and JRV have pointed in the right direction. The issue isn't pinning per se, the issue is ending a Rtphase next to a KEU. That would be failure to rout, hence elimination. If your unit routs to X6, it sees the unit in X7 and is interdicted. It might pass the interdiction MC check and rout away from X7 out of harm's way -- or it could fail the interdiction and suffer CR'd or it might fail and be pinned. I wanted to point out pinning is actually the worse case scenario, because the pin causes the brokie to end his rout phase in X6, adjacent to the KEU in X7, which causes a failure to rout elimination. So I just wanted to point out, interdiction in this case isn't: CR or Pin or Pass -- its: CR, or Elim, or Pass, which in my judgement makes Low crawl the more attractive option. But as JRV points out -- there could easily remain considerations which make risking interdiction the better choice over low crawl.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...I think best rout is a low crawl into X5.

Since Z7 is the initial rout target, I'm not sure a Low Crawl to X5 is legal, as it would not be towards Z7.

A10.52:
"...All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF."

 

[Pyth]

Since Z7 is the initial rout target, I'm not sure a Low Crawl to X5 is legal, as it would not be towards Z7.

A10.52:
"...All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF."

Not sure?! This seems like an issue that must have been resolved somewhere --

There is A) a 5 MF path from W6 to Z7 that passes thru X5. There is B) a 5 MF path from W6 to Z7 that passes thru X6. And --there is no way to reach Z7 from W6 in less than 5MF.

The difference between the two paths is that the W6 path is closer both in MF and hexes to Z7. The X5 path is 5MF as well but the X5 hex is not immediately closer in hexes to Z7.
Both rout paths are surely legal -- but wouldn't ending in X5 be legal as well because ending in X5 is ending 4MF, rather than 5MF, away from Z7 -- is that not "closer"? **edit, and checking A10.51 the "shortest rout" as far as I can tell is determined by MF, not hexes.

The comprehensive rout example probably settles the question -- but it's late here and I lack the will the wade into that thing at the moment.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Old (official Q&A):

A10.51 If a DM broken unit that must rout is within six MF of the nearest woods/building,
must it attempt to reach the woods/building in a single RtPh?
A. Yes, unless it uses Low Crawl, but it need not take the shortest route (in hexes/MF) to do so.
Even if it uses Low Crawl, however, it must still do so toward that woods/building (i.e., at no time
may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building, and must end that RtPh
closer to it than it was at the start of the phase).
[An92; An95w; An96]

Assuming, of course, this still applies, and I'll admit that the "towards" in A10.52 is somewhat vague, as is the last part of the answer above "closer to it" - can mean both in MF/hexes/Locations.

 

[Pyth]

Old (official Q&A):

A10.51 If a DM broken unit that must rout is within six MF of the nearest woods/building,
must it attempt to reach the woods/building in a single RtPh?
A. Yes, unless it uses Low Crawl, but it need not take the shortest route (in hexes/MF) to do so.
Even if it uses Low Crawl, however, it must still do so toward that woods/building (i.e., at no time
may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building, and must end that RtPh
closer to it than it was at the start of the phase).
[An92; An95w; An96]

Assuming, of course, this still applies, and I'll admit that the "towards" in A10.52 is somewhat vague, as is the last part of the answer above "closer to it" - can mean both in MF/hexes/Locations.

If it still applies I think it supports the X5 low crawl, don't you agree? X5 is 'closer' in MF and follows the stipulation that "at no time
may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building" -- I think that wording is significant, it allows for the possibility of a rout which is closer in MF while remaining equidistant in hexes. The X5 low crawl is an example of just such a rout.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If it still applies I think it supports the X5 low crawl, don't you agree? X5 is 'closer' in MF and follows the stipulation that "at no time
may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building" -- I think that wording is significant, it allows for the possibility of a rout which is closer in MF while remaining equidistant in hexes. The X5 low crawl is an example of just such a rout.

Yes, you are correct. For some reason I though that X5 was four hexes away. I'll blame it on ASLOK jetlag.

Though a rout to Z5 would not fulfill the second part of the Q&A: "...and must end that RtPh closer to it than it was at the start of the phase."

And I'm still thinking that "towards" is somewhat vague in A10.62 - something for the 3rd edition perhaps.

 

[Larry]

So you are correct, Z7 is your destination. The rules say as long as you can reach that destination in one Rout Phase, you don't need to take the shortest path. As such, declare Z7 as your destination, first move is to X6 where you must act SHOCKED to find an enemy unit. Z7 is no longer your Rout Destination and you refigure your rout from that point, having spent 2 MF's. Your new destination becomes U3 and you head that way as far as you can. At least, that's how I see it. -- jim

Why doesn't Z7 remain the destination after the surprise? It is further away from X6 and only 4MF from Z7. The broken unit cannot get there in a bee line but can go round the outside. Low crawl seems the only viable option, if legal.

 

[Pyth]

Though a rout to Z5 would not fulfill the second part of the Q&A: "...and must end that RtPh closer to it than it was at the start of the phase."

Did you mean Z5? -- I think you intended X5.

You say a rout to [X5] would not fulfill the second part of the Q&A: "...and must end that RtPh closer to it than it was at the start of the phase." This is the nub of disagreement I think. If I read you correctly you are saying *closer* means less hexes. I think the Q&A leaves us with two criteria for *closer* -- To be closer there must be: No increase in hexes to the target hex, and, movement from the end location should cost less MF to target hex than at start. So, IMO X5 does fulfill the second part of the Q&A.

The second criterion -- defining closer as calculated in MF -- is consistent with A10.51 where rout paths are judged shorter or longer based on MF rather than hexes. The optimally short rout path is determined by counting MF expenditure rather than hexes in A10.51

*edit -- @ Larry #18... :surprise: I think you are right. -- Boy if you ever needed an example of how tricky routs are and how even experienced players can get them wrong there it is. Buuut... I think there's a way to surprise the router effectively... He routs to W7 (!) is surprised and now can legally redirect to U3. W7 is I think a legal way to start the rout (we'll see what Klas says -- this touches on exactly the same issues as Klas and I have been discussing).

 

[Sparafucil3]

Why doesn't Z7 remain the destination after the surprise? It is further away from X6 and only 4MF from Z7. The broken unit cannot get there in a bee line but can go round the outside. Low crawl seems the only viable option, if legal.

Because you can re-figure the rout. At the point you enter X6, you still consider Z7 but note that Z7 is now equidistant to the units in V8 making Z7 ignorable. What's the next possibility after that? You could posit AA8, but that is equidistant to the unit in U8 so it is ignorable. I can't see the terrain in Z8. It is possible that could be a rout destination if it is a Jungle hex. A legal rout path to Z8 is 6 MF (Y6, Z6, Z7, Z8). A legal rout path to U3 is 6 MF (X5, X4, W4, V3, U3). Since you can choose between these rout destinations (they are the same in MF's), it seems far more prudent to select U3 over Z8. This is all JMO. YMMV. -- jim

EDIT to add: When considering Locations for "equidistance", the range is measured in hexes, not movement factors. I am adding this just to make sure people are aware.