IGOUGO, WEGO... where do they all go?

hoplitis

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When considering tactical simulations and how "time" and/or "event sequencing" should be handled, as to be properly simulated, the most obvious "ordering" of choices would be:
Real Time > WEGO (turn based)> IGOUGO (turn based)

on the other hand most of the players of the SP series feel comfortable with the IGOUGO system (obviously) while younger players (in general) seem to be addicted to RT and hence simultaneous movement/action.
So,
do you think that the next generation of SP (called what? "Depleted Uranium Panthers"?) should be turned based WEGO as an overall compromise between good simulation principles, a turn based decision cycle and simultaneous action?
or,
such a tactical game would be just that, a compromise with which nobody would be happy in the end?
 

Aries

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Real time is a click fest, but turns allow gamey tactics.

If I had my choice, ALL wargames would be WEGO.

Take yer best shot, plan yer best plan, commit, and watch and find out if you have or haven't got a clue :)
 

Double Deuce

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I have always thought a Combat Mission type WEGO turn procedure with the OOB/information depth of Steel Panthers would be a winning formula! :smoke:
 

Achilles

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Uncharted waters​

... The most beautiful seas are those that we haven't yet sailed ...

Pyros
 

junk2drive

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The worst thing for me about SP is when you have to sit through a long AI turn while your side Op fires.

I have gotten quite used to CM WEGO. I just finished a PBEM where there were 3 battlezones on one map. The only way to check each battle was to move the viewpoint and replay each action. You can't do that with RT or RTS.

I tried CWBR and the demo for TC2M. Too much going on at the same time for me. By the time I get a break on one side of the map and move the viewpoint somewhere else, it is too late to react.

Real time with Pause and give Orders might be OK. ??

Panzer Command with it's WEGO plus Orders phase and Reaction phase may be the future of WEGO.
 

Artur

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While I cringe writing this in a SP forum, I DO state that the WE-GO system of Combat Mission is by FAR superior. And the CM series are not click fests as you first issue the ortders then the action is computed and played. CM gets the best of both turn-based and real-time games. The depth of SP in OOBs would be welcome though.

I must also say the op-fire misery of Steel Panthers is history there. This Op fire misery and the vain fight to pesuade those who could change it leads me to CM nowdays.

Artur.
 

hoplitis

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junk2drive said:
...
Real time with Pause and give Orders might be OK. ??
...
Stoping the clock sounds somewhat like a cheat. A limited " slow motion" option (say 1/2 - 1/3 real time) maybe acceptable. If multiple "crises" appear and your decision/order time is limited you must access the main threat and deal with that. If your accessment is wrong, well ...:argh:
 
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junk2drive

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hoplitis said:
Stoping the clock sounds somewhat like a cheat. A limited " slow motion" option (say 1/2 - 1/3 real time) maybe acceptable. If multiple "crises" appear and your decision/order time is limited you must access the main threat and deal with that. If your accessment is wrong, well ...:argh:
Cheat? Sounds funny from someone that plays a turn based game.

My problem is that I'm over 50 and the older I get the less I can handle fast paced, stressful things.

I don't want to give up gaming, but I will have to or play the classics if game companies go strictly real time.
 

Aries

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Arcade games were fun in the 80s, I played some of them rather masterfully.

But the problem with an arcade game, is you can't put in a quarter play for 5 minutes, then stop and have a bite of your burger, drink some pop, say hello to a buddy that just arrived, and then play some more game.

This one aspect of video games, and that is all a game is, the ones that have no off capacity, is what makes them so vexing to people that are NOT playing the game.
If your wife can't handle you playing a turn of a wargame, odds are your wife is an overbearing nuisance as well.
But she is likely not out of line, complaining about you playing just about any console video game, 2 hours solid, with a refusal to answer the door, the phone, her, a call to come to dinner, your child asking a question.
And that is the norm for people playing games that don't possess turns, and which have only periodic save points.

Kids are no better. They merely can't tell mom to piss off, the same way a husband can. Granted you don't truely get away with that for long.

Games with turns are not bad by virtue of them possessing turns. It is not an archaic design element that should be discarded, just because arcade games have so completely invaded our homes, now no longer requiring quarters to run.

My eye hand coordination hasn't dropped off much since my youth. I can't run as far or as fast any more, but I am still great with a video game.
But, I prefer my wargames to be wargames. I don't require them to be arcade games.
I'm fine with arcade games being arcade games. I recently ran across Beach head, a game released in 2002. I rather like it. It's not a wargame though, even though I'm blazing away with a cannon or m60 machine gun at infantry, armoured personel carriers, armoured cars, tanks, helicopters, and jets.
The mere presence of infantry, armoured personel carriers, armoured cars, tanks, helicopters, and jets doesn't qualify it as a wargame.
Which is precisely why I refuse to quantify every last game that has military theme or military imagery, as a wargame. Sometimes the term "game" is sufficiently accurate.

I have never once sat down to play a serious wargame, and wanted to experience an arcade game experience. I want my board games to look like a serious attempt at simulating history. I also want my computer wargames to attempt to look like a serious attempt at simulating history.
The history can be speculative history, but I would rather it was established already happened history. It's easier to get the facts straight. Less room for unsubstantiated opinion.

I think, in the realm of computer based games, the closest to managable, realistic, and credible simulation, has come from wego based designs. No rush to perform, no need to depend on questionable AI routines, a distinct limit on gamey tactics, and best of all, you can actually get up from the computer, and answer the door, the phone, your spouse, go eat dinner, help a child with a homework equation, and not risk having just buggered up beating a level in a game.
 

Hertston

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IMHO pausable continuous time is the best choice at the tactical level.. I find the ProSim ATF series of games far more "realistic" than any WEGO game I'm aware of. I think Highway to the Reich demonstrates it can work supremely well in Operational level games, too.

That said, it really depends on the nature of the game. You could easily ruin a potentially promising WEGO or IGOUGO game by "forcing" it into PCT, and vice versa. CM is CM because its WEGO, and nobody in their right mind would want to change that.
 

Cameronius

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Real time simulations may be more realistic but they simply don't suit my life. I can't be online with someone for 2+ hours playing a realtime game. PBEM in SPMBT is very convenient. I can play people from all over the world at any time that is good for me. I only need to invest 15-30 min per turn(if that?). As for the tedium of waiting through an AI turn, I will sometimes walk away or click into another screen until it is over then play out my turn with some added challenge or a "fog of war " if you will. I would not play real time simulations, at least not regularly.
 

Vas FURY

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Both RTS and Turn Based games have their advantages, and there have been many games that have incorporated both elements within them (Battle Isle 4 or Imperium Galactica 2 Anyone? :p ) However, to me, the turn based system excells in the field where strategy is required the most. Im 21, my reflexes are top-notch, and i always play the fast paced counter strike, battlefield 2 etc, but the REAL pleasure that i find is in the deep turn based games such as WinSPMBT. The fact that you are allowed indefinite time to plan your strategy (and munch on a burger while doing so) is the element which makes these games so great. Its what puts the STRATEGY into their title. While some Real time strategy games almost certainly incorporate a degree of real world strategy into them (Shogun Total War, Sudden Strike, Close Combat), they have never succeeded in allowing you to PLAN your strategy to the same extent that say WinSPMBT does, and therefore are not as immersive. I mean, in almost every RTS, you could win simply by rushing the opponent with your troops. Try that in SP or CM, and you will fail. Miserably. Therefore, turn based games give me much more pleasure when a carefully planned attack or maneuver is properly executed, and I doubt that there is an rts out there which would offer me the same satisfaction. IGOUGO or WEGO? Doesnt matter, as long as its Turn-based combat!
 

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This isn't necesarily realistic, as a real commander would have only 3 minutes per turn to deal with the situation and would not have time for a detailed analysis given all the other stuff he has to deal with. But the Steel Panther series never really made an effort to deal with the chaos of war, anyway.
 

Aries

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Mustang19 said:
This isn't necesarily realistic, as a real commander would have only 3 minutes per turn to deal with the situation and would not have time for a detailed analysis given all the other stuff he has to deal with. But the Steel Panther series never really made an effort to deal with the chaos of war, anyway.
In the real world, yes, a real commander won't have all day to ponder what to do.

You guys always seem to forget though, in the real world, all of his units are human, have brains, are subordinants that are properly trained (generally speaking), and capable of acting intelligently (for the most part in the self preservation sense of the word) in the absence of direct action being taken by the next up the line of command (unless the military in question actually DOES have morons).

Either way, in the real world, a commander isn't running a military operation sitting in front of a bloody computer either, making god like decisions with omnipotent levels of control.

So, essentially, what exactly is the point of telling us, a real commander can't ponder each little units actions for unspecified spans of time?

Most commanders generally arrive at a decision, tell the next in chain of command what to do, and then in real life, usually spend a lot of time waiting, doing nothing, hoping their idea was the right one.

That is unless you are like, a platoon commander, and then your responsibilities don't exceed a game of Close Combat, which is basically why that game works, while other games only work, because some players refuse to admit otherwise.
 

Michael Dorosh

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I have always thought a Combat Mission type WEGO turn procedure with the OOB/information depth of Steel Panthers would be a winning formula! :smoke:
Okay, I'll bump this older thread since I did a search and only found one thread discussing WEGO. I just posted in the GF about this and came looking to see if anyone mentioned this - oddly enough, you agree with my comment in the GF.

So I'll ask the question, now, several years later - are there any "traditional" games similar to SP that have a top-down 2D view, turn-based, squad-level approach that is WEGO?

I think Airborne Assault was a WEGO real time game at a slightly higher level (company/battalion)? It seemed popular enough. I'm actually in the credits as a beta-tester back from when battlefront was hosting the production.

Would like to see the same kind of game at the squad or even platoon level - but preferably turn-based, or real time with pauses.

"Avalon Hill's Squad Leader" tried to do something similar in man-to-man, I think, or at least was turn-based - not sure if it was WEGO or not. It did not reside on my hard drive for very long...
 

Double Deuce

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Okay, I'll bump this older thread since I did a search and only found one thread discussing WEGO. I just posted in the GF about this and came looking to see if anyone mentioned this - oddly enough, you agree with my comment in the GF.

So I'll ask the question, now, several years later - are there any "traditional" games similar to SP that have a top-down 2D view, turn-based, squad-level approach that is WEGO?

I think Airborne Assault was a WEGO real time game at a slightly higher level (company/battalion)? It seemed popular enough. I'm actually in the credits as a beta-tester back from when battlefront was hosting the production.

Would like to see the same kind of game at the squad or even platoon level - but preferably turn-based, or real time with pauses.

"Avalon Hill's Squad Leader" tried to do something similar in man-to-man, I think, or at least was turn-based - not sure if it was WEGO or not. It did not reside on my hard drive for very long...
I'm supposed to be working so can't answer this in detail but so far I have not found anything that covers 2D and WEGO. I think think CM was on the right track but the lack of depth (nationality and OOB wise) limited it, at least for me. Sadly, the current direction of CMx2 just doesn't do it for me.
 

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I think the greatest aspect of Steel Panthers is the data base, and if the game's speed is increased beyond WEGO, the player will have less time to contemplate his moves and use the data base effectively. Try what I do, I put the delays (there are 3 of them) on their fastest settings, so my games are still turned based but with the delays being so fast in combination with opportunity fire it's kind of like playing a WEGO game. The only drawback is that descriptions are unreadable as they flash so fast. This causes a problem hardly ever as I have played hundreds of games. The firefights are so intense at times it seems like I'm playing a RTS.
 
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freightshaker

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Wow!! Holy necropost!! I remember some of these guys :)

The Hearts of Iron series utilizes pausible real-time and that works well in single player but can be a hassle in multiplayer. Normally, we'd incorporate a pause at the beginning of each day or week so players could catch up.

It might work better on a smaller scale but trying to play a global nation like Great Britain and keep track of everything going on can be difficult without pausing frequently, which annoys the other players.
 
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