Ideas for Starter Kits?

thively

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I've purchased all SK items that MMP has published, but only played a few scenarios in the SK series. I'm finding the SK's more interesting now. In the new PTO SK#4 a scenario added cave rules in a few paragraphs in a SSR. It looks playable. Yup, not as "realistic" as the full ASL cave rules. I hope the SK series will do the same for rice paddies, seaborne assaults, panjis and a lot of the rest of Chapter G, and perhaps Chapter F someday. I think MMP--I hope MMP--might be taking the opportunity to streamline some of the more overly complex rules and in the name of making a "transition" to full ASL easier, actually makes some of these rules playable in the SK version of them. Stripped down, ok, yes, but maybe playable. I hope MMP continues the SK line. I'll keep buying them.
 

62nd Army

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I've purchased all SK items that MMP has published, but only played a few scenarios in the SK series. I'm finding the SK's more interesting now. In the new PTO SK#4 a scenario added cave rules in a few paragraphs in a SSR. It looks playable. Yup, not as "realistic" as the full ASL cave rules. I hope the SK series will do the same for rice paddies, seaborne assaults, panjis and a lot of the rest of Chapter G, and perhaps Chapter F someday. I think MMP--I hope MMP--might be taking the opportunity to streamline some of the more overly complex rules and in the name of making a "transition" to full ASL easier, actually makes some of these rules playable in the SK version of them. Stripped down, ok, yes, but maybe playable. I hope MMP continues the SK line. I'll keep buying them.

Nice!! SKs a great way to get into full ASL, enjoy the ride.

regards
Joe
 

Der Fleischer

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I would love for the DTO to introduce itself to the ASL SK core system (ASL SK #5). Desert warfare brings with it a completely different scheme of maneuver with tank on tank battles. As a secondary interest, I would like to see Operation Husky (the invasion of Sicily) become the next ASL SK campaign game. As a final thought, perhaps an Action Pack dedicated to Operation Mercury (the German airborne invasion of Crete) would gain some interest. This Action Pack could then introduce the airborne rules from the ASL rules for some added entertainment. Just some thoughts.
 

thively

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I would like to see a China/Korea themed module. Introduce the Red and Nationalist Chinese, and North Koreans. Add some Russians, Japanese and US Army and scenarios could include actions from the early 30's to Korean War actions. With the research done already for Korea, this might be a way to introduce SK players to the Forgotten War ASL module. Also, for those who have the HOB Long March scenarios, many of those are pretty basic infantry only actions, and would be easy to tie into SK rules.
 

62nd Army

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I would like to see a China/Korea themed module. Introduce the Red and Nationalist Chinese, and North Koreans. Add some Russians, Japanese and US Army and scenarios could include actions from the early 30's to Korean War actions. With the research done already for Korea, this might be a way to introduce SK players to the Forgotten War ASL module. Also, for those who have the HOB Long March scenarios, many of those are pretty basic infantry only actions, and would be easy to tie into SK rules.
MMP is working on a PTO expansion, Chinese included. not sure if this will included any Korean scenarios?
I agree with you. some more Korean scenarios for SK would be nice.

Thanks
Joe
 

TheSQLGuru

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1) Pete Shelling has a non-PTO Korean scenario ready for print. I got it from him at ASLOK for review since it is quite complex for an SK scenario. I played it and it is AWESOME, and definitely worth a printing in a future SpecOps magazine. You can find my review of it on the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit Facebook group. He has a real passion for Korean scenarios, and I would not at all be surprised to see him produce several more of them for SK. I am trying to talk him into doing a full SK Korean pack. :) Oh, he also published a Korean scenario in the recently released Banzai! fanzine you can find on the Texas ASL website!

2) I also worked with MMP on rule review (VERY short additions, less than 2 pages formatted probably) and playtesting for the upcoming SK PTO Expansion Pack. It is going to TOTALLY ROCK! The Chinese aren't quite as different as the Japanese. But their differences in squad characteristics (337 1st liners) along with both Dare Death Squad AND Human Wave capabilities add yet another wrinkle to the growing ASLSK ecosystem. I am holding out hope that it will be put up for preorders at Winter Offensive in January.
 

TheSQLGuru

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I've purchased all SK items that MMP has published, but only played a few scenarios in the SK series. I'm finding the SK's more interesting now. In the new PTO SK#4 a scenario added cave rules in a few paragraphs in a SSR. It looks playable. Yup, not as "realistic" as the full ASL cave rules. I hope the SK series will do the same for rice paddies, seaborne assaults, panjis and a lot of the rest of Chapter G, and perhaps Chapter F someday. I think MMP--I hope MMP--might be taking the opportunity to streamline some of the more overly complex rules and in the name of making a "transition" to full ASL easier, actually makes some of these rules playable in the SK version of them. Stripped down, ok, yes, but maybe playable. I hope MMP continues the SK line. I'll keep buying them.
1) I am generally known as Mr. Starter Kit, so I am qualified to say that there is PLENTY to find interesting! It is truly a fully-stand-alone-long-term gaming system now, much more than just a simple feeder into full ASL. The ASLSK FB group, which I moderate, will soon hit 1650 members! There are currently 125 SK scenarios. This means you can play both sides of a scenario each month and go TEN YEARS without repeating yourself. And that doesn't even count spending several months EACH on the Decision at Elst HASL and 8 Scenario Design Context MONSTERS!! It also doesn't count the 15 scenarios I KNOW are actively under development, and I KNOW there are more because MMP publishes two per issue in SpecOps.

2) I don't foresee rice paddies, panji's and others coming, but who knows. I think Caves were done just because they have a big WOW factor. I still haven't played that scenario darn it!

3) Chapter F? Sorry, almost no one plays desert in full ASL, so it would be an absolute waste of effort and money to pursue it in SK.

4) I would be REALLY surprised if MMP does any "streamlining" of the ASL rules, complex or otherwise. Anything along those lines could possibly unbalance some of the umpteen thousand full ASL scenarios out there. Besides, they don't NEED to do that. You want streamlined/simpler - play ASLSK. Otherwise man up and spend the time to learn the full game. :-D IMNSHO, making an "easier" full ASL won't do anything to bring more people into the game.

5) There is a second SK HASL (Stalingrad) that has seen some development. Sadly the designer has some big full ASL projects ahead of it in his queue. If I had lots of money laying around I would offer him a good bit to move that HASL up to the front of the line!!
 

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On this very thread a few years ago I expressed great enthusiasm for PTO SK. Now that I have the module in my hands I'm not so keen. I'm still an SK fanboy, it's just that I don't think Starter Kit works for the Pacific. Though I enjoyed playing S64 Kawaguchi's Gamble the experience was neither as satisfying as full ASL or as fun as SK. The maps are great, the rest of the scenarios look good, but the rules don't measure up. Going forward I'll be playing the SK#4 scenarios with the full ruleset. And as for what I want to see in the Starter Kit line down the road I'd say scenarios. The flaw in Decision at Elst was the lack of same.
 

TheSQLGuru

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1) Can you please provide some detail about how the rules don't "measure up", so that we may have a discourse about what exactly you find holding the product back? I honestly don't understand how "as satisfying as full ASL" can come into play with ANY of the SK modules. I assume you feel the same way about SK 1,2,3, so we can just discard that point, right?

2) Have you noted that some nice full ASL chrome is SSR'd into other SK PTO scenarios? A river and foot bridge, Tank Hunter Hero and even Caves. And the scenario with the river and bridge has a COMPLETELY HIP Japanese defense. That just gives me the willies!!

2) Are you aware that there are currently 125 scenarios published for ASLSK, with at LEAST 2 dozen in the works? 2 new ones, always meaty and awesome, get published by MMP with each edition of their Special Operations magazine. Joseph G has a scenario pack of 5 infantry only ones that are soon to be published and others in the works. SK PTO Expansion pack has 8 more coming that are already well into playtesting. That will have some very nice editions to the SK PTO module that will maybe mollify some of your issues. Those include addition of Chinese (with Dare Death Squads and Human Wave included) and the scenarios also include ANZAC and Phillipine units. One scenario has a fighter bomber and functional AA gun (twin 12.7 buzz saw) SSR'd in.

I also verified at ASLOK this year that there IS a Stalingradesque SK HASL under development, which is AWESOME news! Sadly it has been shelved by the developer until he clears out some big full ASL work he has undertaken. ?

With 125 scenarios, you could play both sides of each scenario each month and go TEN YEARS without a repeat. Add in the DaE campaign game and the 8 MASSIVE 4-board Scenario Design Contest scenarios, each of which could take months to play out and then another set of months to replay the other side. The largest one of the SDC's has around 160 counters in play at the start of the scenario!!! ?

Oh!! I totally forgot that someone repurposed the old Squad Leader Scenario 20 Breakout at Borisov (5 boards, 130ish counters) for SK (maybe 110 counters). I don't know about you, but I could spend 6 months on that one easy.

Isn't that enough scenarios for you, at least for a while? :p
 

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I think what he is saying is SK4 is too much like ASL and not the faster lighter earlier SKs. If SK heavy, he rather just play ASL. Also sounds like he doesn’t like HASLs which is everyone’s cup of tea but too bad as they can be great fun. Elst is tough if the German is not a strong player but I don’t think a HASL should be a scenario pack with a cool map.
 

zgrose

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3) Chapter F? Sorry, almost no one plays desert in full ASL, so it would be an absolute waste of effort and money to pursue it in SK.
There is a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, of course.

I'd love to see just a rough outline of what rules SK-DTO would include (aka, what are the core essentials to make it feel like DTO). Even without a full product, the 12 hours that it might take to give "official guidance" might be enough to craft/convert some DTO scenarios for the SK crowd (and implement whatever might be needed as SSR).
 

TheSQLGuru

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I think what he is saying is SK4 is too much like ASL and not the faster lighter earlier SKs. If SK heavy, he rather just play ASL. Also sounds like he doesn’t like HASLs which is everyone’s cup of tea but too bad as they can be great fun. Elst is tough if the German is not a strong player but I don’t think a HASL should be a scenario pack with a cool map.
I didn't read his comment the way you did. But hopefully he will chime in at some point to clarify.

I think Elst is tough on the Germans even if they are taken by a strong player. I will be testing that assertion later this year since I will be taking my first crack as the Germans. As the British I obliterated my good German opponent. And that was with the British being without their pair of 50 MTRs as balance too. He did fail to get down OBA during round 1 though - despite playing with Steve Pleva's OBA Heretical rules. I think those are MANDATORY, BTW!! I would never play OBA without them. I think in addition to removing the two mortars the German should lose no more than half of the dr for points each turn as well.
 

TheSQLGuru

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Anyone that wants the Borisov scenario just need to join the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit Facebook group and download the file. I am moderator there, and it is a wonderful resource for all things ASLSK! If you join do be sure to read the FOR NEW MEMBERS announcement at the top of the group's page for pointers about all the useful things you can find.
 

kempenfelter

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To pick up where I left off...for me the deal-breaker was the omission of so much that makes PTO different. Yes, there are gaps in Starter Kit but a lot of that is chrome--Weather, Snipers, Heat of Battle--whereas in SK #4 a fundamental rule like G.3 Fire Groups is absent. And adding SSRs willy-nilly as in S35 The Volga is Reached! doesn't work for me. Terrain alterations, a dug-in AFV, Commissars, Snipers, and Air Support--if you want all that play with the Big Red Book.

Still and all I am looking forward to playing the SK #4 scenarios. They seem to have much more replay value than the plodders that came with Code of Bushido. Maybe gamers had a lot more free time back in 1991.

I have been a fan of the Starter Kit system since the day SK #1 arrived in my mailbox in 2004. I have played all the MMP SK scenarios, some multiple times, as well as those in Schwerpunkt Rally Point Volumes 2 and 6. I think it's great that every Special Ops has a couple of additions to the scenario file. My preference though is for ASL Lite to stay Lite.
 

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To pick up where I left off...for me the deal-breaker was the omission of so much that makes PTO different. Yes, there are gaps in Starter Kit but a lot of that is chrome--Weather, Snipers, Heat of Battle--whereas in SK #4 a fundamental rule like G.3 Fire Groups is absent. And adding SSRs willy-nilly as in S35 The Volga is Reached! doesn't work for me. Terrain alterations, a dug-in AFV, Commissars, Snipers, and Air Support--if you want all that play with the Big Red Book.

Still and all I am looking forward to playing the SK #4 scenarios. They seem to have much more replay value than the plodders that came with Code of Bushido. Maybe gamers had a lot more free time back in 1991.

I have been a fan of the Starter Kit system since the day SK #1 arrived in my mailbox in 2004. I have played all the MMP SK scenarios, some multiple times, as well as those in Schwerpunkt Rally Point Volumes 2 and 6. I think it's great that every Special Ops has a couple of additions to the scenario file. My preference though is for ASL Lite to stay Lite.
The one rule I find inexplicably absent from SK is Fire Lanes. Even a toned down version would be preferable and especially with SK PTO. With the ability of a slimmed down Banzai and the Japanese in general, it is giving a decided advantage to them without it IMHO.
 

klasmalmstrom

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...whereas in SK #4 a fundamental rule like G.3 Fire Groups is absent....
It's not absent in SK #4...

Rule 8.2 PTO Terrain:

"A unit in a Dense jungle (8.2.1), kunai, or bamboo hex may not participate in a multi-hex Fire Group if another unit in that Fire Group occupies some other Dense jungle, kunai, or bamboo hex."
 
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