I can't believe that I did it.

vyshka

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#2
Priest said:
Just bought a copy of CH's Advanced Tobruk, ok so, where are all the good web sites and goodies for this game? Thanks gentlemen.
Blasphemor ... heathen... :laugh: Don't let the ASL guys see ya ;) . I have the basic games, but havent tried it out yet. Good luck with your new game. :)
 
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#3
Priest said:
Just bought a copy of CH's Advanced Tobruk, ok so, where are all the good web sites and goodies for this game? Thanks gentlemen.

they have a fairly active ATS forum at the critical hit site. I am sure they will be more than happy to answer your questions.

http://criticalhit.com/Invision/

I get tempted by the ATS system when I compare the 62 pages of ATS rules with the voluminous ASL.

:)


Keith
 
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Aries

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#4
I dunno, if I was going to stray, I think I would have picked Lock n Load instead.
 
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#5
Aries said:
I dunno, if I was going to stray, I think I would have picked Lock n Load instead.

After seeing the impressive demo, it would definetly be on my choice list, but the ATS system has many more scenarios and modules.

The mechanics of LnL sure seem more friendly and better to this ASL'er especially since he has experience with PanzerGrenadier system.

Hmm good point Aries, got me thinking,

Keith
 

Priest

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#6
Aries said:
I dunno, if I was going to stray, I think I would have picked Lock n Load instead.
I was looking for a game set in Northern Africa which eliminated LnL. I wanted to get DAK2, but, had to settle for Advanced Tobruk.
 

Gunner Scott

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#7
Hi-

ATS is not a bad game, heck, if I did not have so much time and money invested in ASL, it might have been my game of choice to play in a different life. The 3.x rules coming out in Critical Hit's Berlin Red vengence module are pretty tight, not bad for a 60 something page rule book.


Scott
 

Aries

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#8
Just a matter of time I think, with LnL.

Few modules now, many later likely.

ATS, ok maybe the game is ok in that it might play out of the box, maybe. Maybe I can even get past my personal problems with a certain owner (name obvious).

But, I DO own a copy of Tobruk. THE Tobruk. It has as much in common with ATS, as I have with Stevie Wonder.

Maybe if CH had made a game, that was actually original, and called it an actual original name, and not tried to just cut and paste an already known name of another on the box, it wouldn't be so annoying.

LnL "seems" so ASL Lite like, because squad level combat is squad level combat. Some things are just hard to avoid.

But, if I wanted to make an offering for the market, at the squad combat level, I wouldn't just buy an existing game, Type Advanced in front of the name, and then proceed to copy nearly shamelessly verbatim somebody else's hard work. And only differentiate it by adding a few new ideas so that it wasn't truely a clone.

LnL is a better choice, mostly because at least LnL looks like it isn't a clone with a new hat.
 

stone156

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#9
Aries said:
Just a matter of time I think, with LnL.

Few modules now, many later likely.

ATS, ok maybe the game is ok in that it might play out of the box, maybe. Maybe I can even get past my personal problems with a certain owner (name obvious).

But, I DO own a copy of Tobruk. THE Tobruk. It has as much in common with ATS, as I have with Stevie Wonder.

Maybe if CH had made a game, that was actually original, and called it an actual original name, and not tried to just cut and paste an already known name of another on the box, it wouldn't be so annoying.

LnL "seems" so ASL Lite like, because squad level combat is squad level combat. Some things are just hard to avoid.

But, if I wanted to make an offering for the market, at the squad combat level, I wouldn't just buy an existing game, Type Advanced in front of the name, and then proceed to copy nearly shamelessly verbatim somebody else's hard work. And only differentiate it by adding a few new ideas so that it wasn't truely a clone.

LnL is a better choice, mostly because at least LnL looks like it isn't a clone with a new hat.
ATS is based on the Tobruk system because Hal Hock, the original Tobruk designer, worked closely with Critical Hit in the original design of Tobruk up until he passed away. The two games armor systems are very closely related.

Not sure what you are saying is cloned though...LnL is an ASL clone? ATS is _nothing_ like ASL. The game engines are different, different morale/casualty systems.

I have played both ATS and ASL, they are simply not the same at all. LnL is more on the PG complexity and flavor. ATS is an excellent game and plays very well, with 80% of the detail of ASL but with a lot less rules. If you haven't played ATS what are you basing your opinion on?
 
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Aries

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#10
Well as I said, I have the ATS design's manual. Read it closely enough too.

I own the original Tobruk wargame as well.

I've been around since ASL was just SL too of course.

I have the files for the LNL demo even though I don't yet have the full package, but some things are fairly obvious where design is concerned.

But what wasn't mentioned in my post ahead of this one, was I was also around to see all the ugly mess that came before ATS was created. I think "ugly mess" sums it up well enough too.

No, I said at least LnL ISN'T a cloned ASL with a few parts swapped out to make it "technically" different.
Regardless of Hal's input in the creation of ATS, to call it "Advanced" Tobruk, is a slap in the face to anyone's intelligence.
It is not Advanced Tobruk.
I don't have to have made the Tobruk board game to know they are not related.

Why they went the route of buying Tobruk, and then going the route of calling it "Advanced" Tobruk will likely be bandied about though with no one agreeing.
But the purpose was really just to produce an ASL wanna be, when it likely would have been better if they had just tried to build their own game right from the beginning.

Given a choice of buying ASL all over again, or buying into ATS from the beginning. I likely would still pick the much more expensive ASL over ATS. Why pick second best just to save some cash? If cash was a factor at all, the right choice would be to pick LnL a much better game, and a great deal cheaper too.

ATS will always be the Pepsi of squad level board gaming in WW2, and ASL will always be the Coke :)
Or put another way. ATS is at best Coors lite :)
 

stone156

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#11
Well, you should probably try ATS so you have a basis for comparison. As I said the armor systems between the two Tobruks are very similar. ATS vastly improves the original Tobruk infantry system (who would want to play the original system again anyway! :cheeky: )

I am not really familier with the history of CH and ASL but have heard about some of it through the hinting here and at CW. I don't really care either as it is about the games.

I have picked up some old ASL stuff to have a look at it again, as I sold BV and Yanks back in the 80's after SL through GI. ATS' impulse system allows an act and reaction type of play that is not possible in ASL. ATS is more casualty driven while ASL is morale driven.

LnL should not be compared to either ASL or ATS as it doesn't come close in terms of play style. LnL is more of a design for effect than detail. It seems to capture the flavor of events well enough but is much more abstracted. To be fair I should mention I have only played the Demo and looked at a friends copy of Band of Heroes. I don't understand why the LnL boards are the way they are, do not like the white hex outline, it really makes it tough to make out the terrain and seems to be a needless addition, much prefer the ASL / ATS style maps/terrain.

To say ATS is a Coors Lite compared to ASL is probably close to reality. It tastes great, less filling and 1/2 the rules of ASL! ;)
 

Aries

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#12
Your post was fine up till this part :)

"To say ATS is a Coors Lite compared to ASL is probably close to reality. It tastes great, less filling and 1/2 the rules of ASL!"

Anyone saying anything positive about Coors Lite has a screw loose (or has been denied the chance to drink real beer :) ).
 
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#13
stone156 said:
LnL is more of a design for effect than detail. It seems to capture the flavor of events well enough but is much more abstracted. )
Just my 2p. Not so much abstracted. Just have an eye on the very complete, but still simple, armor rules. And even in the simple infantry rules, i can not see something so much "abstracted". LnL is designed with new mechanics and new ideas wich afford to play "real" tactics (please not the " ") that works. And what is going on on the board is not more simple than what is going on a ASL or ATS board. Add the spotting rules wich are a major point in the game. All that give the feeling of "real life". Abstracted stuff, yes because it's a game, but i don't see the "much more". Less detailed, sure it is. But it does not give an "abstracted" result.
 
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