I always wanted to stay out of mideast

[Cheetah772]

I object to your post, Headshot

Hello,

I object to your post, Headshot.

IDF should not be disbanded, if that's what you mean.

Israel would be without any legitimate defense forces. She needs one, and she's not about to make peace with the Arabs whose religious ideals require them to destroy Israel's existence, no way!

Instead of running around in circles, we need to support Israel directly by sending in our troops to help IDF to blast the terrorist cells, exile or assassinate Arafat, he's an idiot.

But IDF is there to stay!

Dan

 

[Deltapooh]

Originally posted by Cheetah772

IDF should not be disbanded, if that's what you mean.

I think Headshot meant IDF forces should withdraw from occupied terrorities. I support this as long as it doesn't expose the Israelis to grave danger. Israel's Arab neighbors have proven to be very untrustworthy.

The Palestinians supported the Arabs in the 1967 Six-Day War. I have no problem with Israel not returning terrority captured "during the war." It was an Arab, not Israeli instigated conflict. However, Israel made a very acceptable offer to Arafat in 2000. They should reinstate this after the Palestinian violence has died down.

Originally posted by Cheetah772

Instead of running around in circles, we need to support Israel directly by sending in our troops to help IDF to blast the terrorist cells, exile or assassinate Arafat, he's an idiot.

US troops would do more harm than good in this region. Whether it's a counter-insurgency or Peacekeeping operation, to many Arabs, the force will look like an occupation force. They'll conclude American soldiers are just a more powerful Army meant to do what the IDF didn't, push the Palestinians out once and for all. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, each act of violence, justified or not, serves to encourage the next. The Palestinian terrorists will suck our troops into the dense urban areas and bleed us. Worse, as American soldiers engage the enemy in neighborhoods on television, we'll look like oppressors.

The military could adopt the tactic of remaining in observation post, etc. However, this will make troops sitting ducks for terrorist attacks. Mortars, rocket attacks, bombings, etc would kill soldiers forcing either a response, or withdrawal. Both could further damage chances for lasting peace.

Originally posted by Maddog

To be honest, I see very little hope for peace here. Even when President Clinton and the whole European community put their full weight behind the peace process it was derailed by extremists and terrorists.

I don't believe we have ever done enough. The US is very reluctant to pressure those that support Arafat and the terrorists to accept peace. Do anyone believe Arafat or the terrorists are operating independently? Countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria are providing money and weapons needed to maintain the war effort. We would get alot further by imposing "our" will on them.

It's time for the world to move from the sideline to the frontline in the Middle East. If it's so important to our strategic interest, we must form true alliances, not just hollow agreements. The Arab League should be encouraged to support the Barak Peace offer. If they refuse, the world should move to apply crippling sanctions on the governments. Embargos, withdrawal of aid, etc will hit the corrupt dictators where it really counts, in their pockets. If we want peace, we're gonna have to make sacrifices. That might include higher gas prices. Yet, I believe we can outlast the Arab dictators.

Look at how the US responds to evidence that Saudi Arabian officials provided funding to two of the terrorists involved in the 9/11 attack. Had that been Iraq, Saddam's ass would be grass. Yet, since is the almighty Saudis, we quietly investigate and refuse to say anything that might upset our friend the King. Never mind the bastard is stabbing us in the back and laughing in our face.

Israel is not a rogue state. I believe they want peace. However, no government can give-in under the conditions Israel is enduring. We should pressure the puppet-masters and the string, not the doll. The fastest route to peace between the Arabs and Israelis is through the a strong diplomatic effort supported by real threats and power. If the West moves as a hole against Saudi Arabia demanding they commit to peace or face economic sanctions, their options will be limited. They might resist for a while, but the US not present, and talking to the Arab people, not just their governments, things could change.

Yet, ultimately, true peace can only be achieved by changing the hearts and minds of the parties involved. It requires both sides to stand up and admit they were wrong, forgive what has happened, and venture into the scary unknown of cooperation. There is no quick and painless road. However, I do believe we can do so much more.

 

[Headshot]

I did not mean IDF as a whole. But there are specific sections of the IDF tat are meant specifically for palestinian issues. And I have no objection to a defense force, but the IDF is an occupation force.

 

[Major Banned]

Originally posted by Headshot
I did not mean IDF as a whole. But there are specific sections of the IDF tat are meant specifically for palestinian issues. And I have no objection to a defense force, but the IDF is an occupation force.

Israel is an occupation force.

 

[Deltapooh]

Should a withdrawal be allowed, those units specificially organized to police and control the Palestinians will not be necessary.

I don't believe Israel can make the first move toward peace. If they pull back now, with all these attacks occuring, it will could have disasterous results. The terrorists might see a withdrawal as a victory, and validation of their tactics. They could just continue the attacks on Israelis. Then Israel might deem it necessary to retaliate with somekind of incursion into Palestinian terrority. That would have far-reaching ramifications.

The Israelis made a very acceptable offer to Arafat in 2000. He turned it down for personal reasons, and greed. The ball is in the Palestinian court. And in my opinion, time is running out. I can't imagine Israel enduring another year or two of these kinds of consistent attacks. These terrorist acts are equal to, per capita, an Oklahoma City Bombing every other week, with Atlanta Olympic attacks filling the gap bewteen each major attack. At some point restraint reaches it's limit. Then all hell breaks loose.

Those terrorists don't know what the hell they might be bringing on their people. Then again, the lousy bastards don't care.

 

[ER_Chaser]

Originally posted by Deltapooh
Those terrorists don't know what the hell they might be bringing on their people. Then again, the lousy bastards don't care.

Deltapooh: that is exactly the problem. The terrorists created the problem and they should be punished. But unfortunately, when Israeli unleashes its revenge, it cannot punish those who deserved it ---- this is not only true for this conflict, but also for almost any other conflicts in human history ---- for instance, Saddam Hussein was to be punished after the gulf war, but who indeed suffered? He is still living in his luxury complex with plenty of girls, but the new born kids had no food and education! ----- anyway, back to Israel: when the fight all breaks out, the normal unarmed palestinians will suffer the most, for sure. And what in return? They hate, they want revenge, they then will have the potential to become terrorists and/or help the terrorists who actually was the criminal in the first place ---- in this sense, the Israeli military is used by the terrorists, instead of fighting them! Then, those people (pal) will hate the Israelis --- please notice, not the army only, but all of them, including those who wanted peace and understood them, but when some1 lost their brother or sons won't think that much. They grab something what can explode or whatever and ... (they think) do the "job" .... and then the Israelis' who lost their brothers or girlfriends will fight back ...

and then go on and on ....

aha... I'd better still stay out of these .... anyway, it is thanksgiving .... you know....
hey, you guys all have turkeys ?

 

[Deltapooh]

The revolving cycle of violence..............

Originally posted by ER_Chaser

aha... I'd better still stay out of these .... anyway, it is thanksgiving .... you know....
hey, you guys all have turkeys ?

Yeah, I'm going to moms. I would try to cook a turkey myself, but I'm still on probation for my little 4th of July Bar-B-Que horror :hurt:

 

[Major Banned]

Everyone is missing the point. The country of Palestine consisted of Arabs, Christians, and Jews. In 1948 the United Nations (mostly the U.S. and England) decided to transport the victims of the Holocaust to Palestine. In which at that point, the Zionist factions decided to forcibly move the non-Jewish peoples out of Palestine.
Remember that the refugees that were holed up in the Church of the Nativity by Merkava III's consisted of Arabs and Christians and some Jews. The state of Israel is not governed by the Jewish people, but by the Zionists, which are a far greater roadblock to Middle Eastern peace than the Arabs could ever think to be.
Religious Fundamentalism is an ugly thing, no matter which side is guilty. People are too quick to blame the Arabs when the same amount of blame can be applied to the Zionists.

 

[Tzar]

Originally posted by Major Catastrophe
Everyone is missing the point. The country of Palestine consisted of Arabs, Christians, and Jews. In 1948 the United Nations (mostly the U.S. and England) decided to transport the victims of the Holocaust to Palestine. In which at that point, the Zionist factions decided to forcibly move the non-Jewish peoples out of Palestine.
Remember that the refugees that were holed up in the Church of the Nativity by Merkava III's consisted of Arabs and Christians and some Jews. The state of Israel is not governed by the Jewish people, but by the Zionists, which are a far greater roadblock to Middle Eastern peace than the Arabs could ever think to be.
Religious Fundamentalism is an ugly thing, no matter which side is guilty. People are too quick to blame the Arabs when the same amount of blame can be applied to the Zionists.

You've got a very good point there.

Not a lot of people know it, but the failure of the Oslo agreement between Palestinians and Israelis is mainly because of 2 elements that were not settled in the first round of negos and could not be solved later on: the return of the Palestinian refugees (which relates to the first Israeli-Arab wars), and the status of Jerusalem.

A) The return of the Palestinian refugees: as Major Catastrophe pointed out, when the first waves of Jews from Europe landed ashore in Palestine after WWII and joined the other Palestinians Jews, they kicked out of their houses and lands hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that were already living there since centuries. With every war (1948, 1956 and so on), more and more Palestinians were expelled out of Palestine and became refugees. Most of them wandered across different Arab nations, but they especially gathered in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. Lots of them packed into Gaza bank and the currently occupied territories.

During the Oslo negotiations, the Palestinians asked the Israelis for the right for these refugees and their descendants to come back to their ancestral lands. Israel refused that right. In fact, through the controversial Jewish settlements in Palestinian territories, they are even trying to go further in occupying more land.

B) The status of Jerusalem: as everybody knows, Jerusalem is a considered a sacred city by 3 religions: Christian, Muslim and Jewish. In other words, it means trouble for the poor city. During the Oslo agreement, Israel wanted to integrate Jerusalem as part of the Jewish state and make it the official capital of Israel. The Palestinians refused. It should be noted that the international community always refused to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel (that's why the government is located in Tel Aviv instead).

 

[Cheetah772]

Zoinism?

Hello,

It seems that the term "Zionist" has become a traditional term for anybody, whether he or she be an Arab or not, as a "racial slur." Religious fundamentalism is not the real issue here. The real issue is the ownership of Palestine, which belongs to Israel alone. There were always Jews living in Palestine, even though they may at times be exiled to the other areas or countries, but there always been a small minority of Jews in Palestine.

I am quite furious at the claims of the international community refusing to recognize the legitimate conquests of Israeli Army. I was looking at every map of any kind, and I found that Israel's occupied territories were not recognized as a part of Israel. It's not right at all.

Whether you like it or not, Israel won the wars fair and square. Israel is there to stay, period. Israeli Army fought like hell to perserve the existence of the state of Israel, and it deserves our respect. Now, here comes the international community which strangely refused to recognize the principles of conquest. Whether you like it or not, the principle of conquest is valid and legitimate. We Americans conquered Japan in WWII, and the international community recognized that fact, don't tell me it's full of crap, I refuse to accept that, and don't tell me that it's different from Israel and Palestine situation! .

Why is it the people refuse to accept the fact that Israeli Army is the best in the world, and did capture Jerusalem with military professionalism that doesn't reduce itself to the levels of petty Palestinian terrorists who kill children and elderly people? Israel succeeded in the wars, and now, some of you are telling me that Israel should withdraw from Jerusalem or make it an international city? It's full of crap, okay? I believe that the Jews are not a bunch of "Zionists", they are real human beings, and do have a legitimate claim to the city of Jerusalem, and do have the right to call it the capital of Israel, period. Palestinians do not have that right or even the international community.

We do recognize China's conquest of Tibet and other smaller states, and we do not single out the Tibet on the maps, we recognize Tibet as a legitimate part of China as whole. Yet, nobody is making a lot of noise about Tibet and Chinese abuse of human rights over there! This is utter folly, this is stupid, okay? I believe that the international community, that includes America, have a strong tendency to discriminate the Jewish people more than any other racial groups.

In fact, the U.N. has passed so many resolutions against the state of Israel in that U.N. can be rightfully called a racist organization. Nobody seems to remember the U.N. conference held in South Africa on the theme of "Zionists" discriminations and treating the Jews as racists.

Let's drop the pretension that we're trying to negotiate a balanced treaty for all sides involved. We're not trying to be neutral, we're trying to put down the Jews or Israelis, and ignoring the legitimate claims of the Jewish people.

It is about time for us to finally recognize Israel is there to stay and does have the right to an armed force that is capable of carrying out both offensive and defensive operations, and does adhere to the principles of conquest and various legitimate military operations that should deserve the respect of so-called international community including the Palestinians!

And that Israel does have the right to name Jerusalem as their capital of the state of Israel. In addition to that, Israel does have the right to administrate the occupied territories, and annex them as the parts of Israel as whole in any shape or form. Israel does not need to bow before the international pressure.

Nobody seems to remember that the Palestinians not only want the independence from Israel, but hell-bent on destroying the very existence of Israel! This is threatening to Israel, and must take extreme measures in ending any serious threat to Israel's national security. The Palestinians must be stopped at all costs to prevent the destruction of the only fragile democratic Western society in the region of Middle East.

You cannot concede anything to a bunch of terrorists (the Palestinians) or to power-hungry people (the Arabs) who are furious at the very thought of having a Jewish state. You cannot do that to Israel, period. Nobody seems to understand that once you concede something, you're about to open the floodgate to every nut and frantic who want to rip apart the state of Israel, you cannot do that.

Israel captured the territories fair and square, it is about time for us the international community to accept that fact.

The Palestinians are the people who caused this problem, not the Israeli people, and it is them who must surrender to Israel in a genuine demostration of wishing for a lasting peace in Middle East. It is the Palestinians who must stop teaching their children how to hold an Ak-47 and yelling to destroy Israel by any means necessary. It is the Palestinians who must stop the suicide bombings. It is the Palestinians who must stop everything to demostrate that they have some real genuine desires for peace.

In my opinion, Israel have done enough to deserve my respect, she fought off numerically superior enemies with plenty of international support, she defeated them fair and square. She did not send out guerrilla units acting like cowards and bomb the innocent people of the Arab world, she did not reduce itself to yelling for the total destruction of the Arab world. She did not have to do that. The Israeli people did not teach their children how to hold a M-16 and kill the Arabs or Palestinians for that matter. They formed a professional army that is worthy of comparsion to Hitler's mighty German military machine or American technological superiority in its armed forces. They achieved and got the real dignity in face of huge odds arrayed against them.

It is the Palestinians and the Arabs who must deserve the respect the HARD way, by surrendering to Israel or acting like real men and get off their asses in forming a REAL professional army, not a bunch of teenagers with bombs strapped to their chests, and defeat Israel on the battlefields, not in the malls, bus stops, etc. . Until they do that, in my opinion, we would do the world a whole lot of good in ignoring the Arabs and Palestinians, and giving unconditional support to the state of Israel.

Dan

 

[Tzar]

Re: Zoinism?

Originally posted by Cheetah772
Hello,

It seems that the term "Zionist" has become a traditional term for anybody, whether he or she be an Arab or not, as a "racial slur." Religious fundamentalism is not the real issue here. The real issue is the ownership of Palestine, which belongs to Israel alone.

Belongs to Israel alone ? The fact is that there were Jews, yes you're right, but there were also Palestinians Christians and Muslims living there also. This is a fact.

What do you do of all these people that were there before and were expelled by force (Christians and Muslims)? Don't they deserve any kind of consideration at all? I am not talking here about terrorists, I'm talking here about the fate of all these Palestinians families, women and children. They are human beings also. But you stay silent on their fate, as if you were discarding them right away.

I am not saying we should reverse back history and ask all the Jews that came there after WWII to leave Palestine. That is nonsense. But we need to take the plight of these people into consideration. Palestine isn't only strictly reserved to Jews. Other people have lived there for centuries, Muslims and Christians. We can't just ignore them. Any solution to the Israeli-Palestinian that doesn't take into account a sense of justice of all parties involved won't work.

Whether you like it or not, the principle of conquest is valid and legitimate. We Americans conquered Japan in WWII, and the international community recognized that fact, don't tell me it's full of crap, I refuse to accept that, and don't tell me that it's different from Israel and Palestine situation!

I tell you it's completely different. You're mixing up apples and oranges:

A) Japon is an independent country, and the independance of Japan was never put into doubt by Washington. Palestine is not independant, and the current Israeli government doesn't want it to be.

B) America is not controlling the Japanese government through military force, there is no military occupation of Japan. Palestine is military occupied and controlled.

C) America wanted to defeat Japan and win the war. America NEVER wanted to conquer Japan indefinetely and make Japan another State of Union. Lots of Israelis wnat to make Palestine an integral part of Israel, whatever the people living there think about it.

Nothing is completely black or white in this world. It's all shades of grey and all depends on which point of view you are considering.

If I place myself in the shoes of an Israeli, I will hold the same opinion you are holding, I will be very emotional about it and I will consider myself legitimate to think this way.

If I place myself in the shoes of a Palestinian (and I invite you to do so for a moment so that you can have a comprehensive understanding of the situation, not a distorted or one-sided view of it), I will hold a completely different view of the situation and I will consider also legitimate to think this way.

So on one hand, the Palestinians need to accept that Israel IS THERE TO STAY. They need to accept that Jews have a legitimate right to live and stay there.

On the other hand, Israelis need to accept that this land is not only theirs, by any means. They need to accept to SHARE IT with the people that have been there as long as themselves have been.

 

[Deltapooh]

Both Tzar and Cheetah772 make good arguments.

I do agree with Cheetah772 that Israel should not be required to pull out of terrority they seized during the Six Day War. The Palestinians, along with Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq all united to defeat Israel in 1967. Their threats and military maneuvering incited the Israeli offensive. Israel asked Jordan not to enter the war, but King Hussein began shelling the Israeli side of Jerusalm anyway. (The IAF had already attacked their Jordan's Air Force.) Israel diverted a paratrooper brigade to take the city. Jordan lost it and the area around it. They started the Six Day War, not Israel. The Palestinians jumped on Nasser's Bandwagon, and paid dearly.

Yet, land seized after the 1967 war should be returned to the Palestinians. The expansion of settlements is unjustified, and I compare it to the atrocity America committed against the Indians.

Former Prime Minister Barak made an offer that appeared to meet almost every Palestinian demand, including the question of Jerusalm. Should the violence stop, the Israelis must reinstate this offer.

I am less sensitive to the Palestinians because they are the aggressors at the moment. Many people have achieved independence without resorting to the sort of senseless violence we see committed against Israelis. The world would be more willing to aid the Palestinian plight if they weren't so keen on seizing all the land. There is, or can ever be, support for terrorism, no matter how justified it might appear.

The oppression the Palestinians claim to be suffering under doesn't appear to exist; at least at the level suggested. I was all against OPERATION DEFENSIVE SHIELD, accepting Palestinian claims of massacres. Later, I discovered the atrocities said to have occurred at Jenin didn't. Of the fifty-two killed, half were terrorists. Maybe half of those who weren't terrorists could have been some kind of supporter. That leaves thirteen non-combatants killed in an major urban battle. That is not horrific.

In the end, Tzar makes some good points. Israel must accept the Palestinians and Palestinians must accept Israel. If it weren't for radicals, peace might be achievable in our time. However, as long as the Palestinians express their opinion with senseless violence, I will have a hard time accepting their plight.