I always wanted to stay out of mideast

ER_Chaser

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but seeing these pictures forwarded by a friend this morning... I did not feel very well .... anyway .... to know more sometimes hurts, but still got to know more...
 

Siberian HEAT

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Disturbing if true. However, I would have to have more facts on this case instead of some hand-made picture like this. There may be more to this than meets the eye.
 

Dr Zaius

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No need to try to figure out what happened here. Hamas has already taken credit for it.
 

ER_Chaser

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yea... putting two pictures together, only one word spells out:
tragedy
 

Cheetah772

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Isreal needs America's support

Hello,

It makes no difference to me, both pictures only show me just how human both Arabs and Israeli are.

Here in America, we do have an occasional police abuse, it can be said the same of ANY country. That person who shot him has no excuse, and shouldn't look for.

Yet on the same hand, there is no excuse for Hamas' bombing of a bus, there's nothing brave about it. Killing a bunch of innocent people is not the best way to express the frustration with legitimate authorities. Killing them only proves that Hamas is a terrorist group and should be taken out the same way as Al-Qaeda.

Israel needs America more than ever, it needs somebody other than the world's hatred for Israel to know Israel is not alone in this world.

Israeli society is falling apart and into ultra-paranoid mode. As long the Arabs or Palestinians continue to teach their children to embrace suicide bombers and hatred, there's no hope except for Israeli soldiers to take extreme measures that may violate anybody's basic and natural rights.

Let me say with harsh words, it is fault of Hamas and every Palestinian groups that this occurred, I mean it, and I'm not gonna take back my statement, no matter how you all may disagree with me. They are teaching and encouraging children to kill Israeli people as many they can. No one in their right mind would do that. Israeli don't do that to their children.

Palestinians must stop their terrorist bombings and Israeli can at last breath easily. It is Palestinians alone that have power to stop any time, not the Israeli soldiers .

Palestinians must accept Israel is there to stay, period, and no matter how many times they bomb buses, Israel is going to stay there stubbornly, and it is Jewish people's land, period.

If Palestinians want their independence, then let me say with harsh words -- if Palestinians want to fight for their independence, then my advise to them is to fight Israeli Army, not a bunch of high school kids and elderly people who have nothing to defend themselves -- at least they can get some respect from me.

America fought for her independence by meeting the British Army on the battlefield, not reducing themselves to killing Loyalists. Vietnamese did resort to terrorist methods, but for the most part, they deserve respect in fighting off Chinese, Japanese, French, and at last American troops from their homeland. They have won my respect. As long Palestinians continue to reduce themsevles to killing a bunch of kids and innocent people, they do not have my respect, period, no matter how you cut it!

Until Palestinians wake up and smell coffee, it's gonn stay that way!

Dan
 

Wolfe Tone

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I agree using suicide bombers against civilians is totally wrong. It damages the Palestinains cause. If they want to fight a war then they should tackle with the Israeli army not the ordinary folks.

However the Israelis should do the same and get out of the Palestinian areas and stay out. They should tell the troublmaking settlers that the rest of Israel is not going to keep on paying so high a price to allow them to live in plush suburbs on the lands of others. They should stop picking off Palestinain men women and children almost daily just to spread fear and repression. If I were a Palestinian I might not agree with attacking my enemy's people but I doubt if I would lose much sleep over it.
Peace and prosperity, one day some day, to the peoples of the Holy Land.....let us all hope for that.
 

Siberian HEAT

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Originally posted by Maddog
No need to try to figure out what happened here. Hamas has already taken credit for it.
The only thing that makes me sicker than seeing this, is the fact the bomber's father (the bomber was 23 btw) was PROUD of his son for blowing up the bus. :eek:
 

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i think that the "one sided war" argument is ridiculous. If Palestine does not relize Isreal is here to stay they will destroy themselves. The IDF is killing plenty of palestinians due to their frusterations with the suicide bombing. These incursions draw more bombers. So this vicous cycle starts where?
 

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With all the arabs who in 1948 decided that instead of accepting the British partition, that they would attack and destroy the Jewish state.
 

Tzar

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Re: Isreal needs America's support

Originally posted by Cheetah772

If Palestinians want their independence, then let me say with harsh words -- if Palestinians want to fight for their independence, then my advise to them is to fight Israeli Army, not a bunch of high school kids and elderly people who have nothing to defend themselves -- at least they can get some respect from me.

I agree. I am positively sure that most Palestinians would be happy to regroup into an organized combat force to fight face-to-face the Israeli Army, in a fair and loyal fight.

There is just a small problem though.

The Palestinians have no army. And they can't have one.

Unfortunately for them, they fell on the wrong side of History in the last 40 years:

They don't have a superpower whose taxpayers are pouring billions of dollars in their government to help them get weapons, tanks, and guns.

And since they did not get almost completely exterminated 60 years ago in a horrible genocide by a mad German leader, they cannot go elsewhere on Earth try to kick out some inhabitants out of their lands and grab it in the name of their God.

So, because of all that and some more, Israel has tanks. Howitzers. Armored troop carriers. Heavy machine guns. SAM missiles. Attack helicopters. Jet fighters. Jericho nuclear missiles.

And let's see what's the Palestinians got:

Rocks - plenty of rocks in fact, there are easy to find among the ruins of houses slammed by Israeli missiles. Sticks also - again, there is always a burned wood stick among the ruins of houses. Machine guns sometimes, bought through corrupt Israeli soldiers -talk about an irony. And of course these dynamite sticks. Enough to blow themselves up in a bus full of children, in the utlimate act of cowardice, but not enough to go fight a professionnal, well-equipped modern army.

So, I think it's clear why the Palestinians don't attack the Israeli forces head-on, isn't it?

Originally posted by Cheetah772
Vietnamese did resort to terrorist methods, but for the most part, they deserve respect in fighting off Chinese, Japanese, French, and at last American troops from their homeland. They have won my respect.
Yes. Incidentally, the Vietnamese happened to get the backing of two large superpowers in their fight: China and USSR. Not surprinsingly, after a while they were able to move on from terrorist attacks to more serious military operations, in a fair fight with American forces. Not exactly the case of the Palestinians.
 
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Re: Re: Isreal needs America's support

Having studied Middle Eastern history quite a bit over the last year or so, I felt some points needed to be clarified a bit....


Originally posted by Tzar
Unfortunately for them, they fell on the wrong side of History in the last 40 years:

They don't have a superpower whose taxpayers are pouring billions of dollars in their government to help them get weapons, tanks, and guns.


True, although most of the Middle East, save Israel and Jordan (if I'm not mistaken), was a Soviet client for weapons for much of the Cold War.

In the 1960's, when the French (not that they're a superpower, but I'm citing a specific example) began to distance themselves from Israel to stay in the good graces of the oil-producing states of the region, sold modified (to Israeli specs) Mirage aircraft to the Egyptians on terms highly favorable for Egypt. Presumably Israel's check hadn't cleared the bank when this occured!

And since they did not get almost completely exterminated 60 years ago in a horrible genocide by a mad German leader, they cannot go elsewhere on Earth try to kick out some inhabitants out of their lands and grab it in the name of their God.


Actually, the British originally (and somewhat accidentally) began the process for partition in November 1917 with the Balfour Declaration. I'll readily concede it became an urgent international task when the atrocites of Dachau, et al, became public knowledge.

So, because of all that and some more, Israel has tanks. Howitzers. Armored troop carriers. Heavy machine guns. SAM missiles. Attack helicopters. Jet fighters. Jericho nuclear missiles.


Most of this cannot be argued, though to be a devil's advocate, I'll point out in 1948 when the British mandate ended and the Israeli state was officially born, it was almost immediately assailed upon from all directions by armies of neighboring Arab states. Because of the British mandate, there was an embargo enforced by the British preventing arms entering Palestine. This forced the de-facto Israeli government (pre British withdrawal) to covertly develop its own munitions factories along with elaborate means of disguising this fact.

As the fighting progressed, NO nation, save Czechoslovakia, sold arms to the Israelis...who wound up resorting to many various creative and unusual means to acquire aircraft for their air force (the birth of the Israeli Air Force is some fascinating and humorous reading!), while the British supplied the Egyptians with modern Spitfires.

And let's see what's the Palestinians got:


I must admit that I had a small chuckle at this section. It's tragic, but laregly true...although again, there are so many small arms from the cold war era on the loose in the region that it's ridiculous.

I'll end my message with the observation that I'm not an Israeli sympathizer per se. Personally, I believe some of their policies (the continued promulgation of the controversial settlements in the West Bank, for example) have created some of the situation that is their reality today. However, the refusal of the Palestinian "leadership" (and that's a loose term for it) to engage in constructive and intelligent dialogue in the creation of an independent Palestinian state while tacitly encouraging the activities of Hamas, et al have only exacerbated an already bad situation. Until a leader of substance replaces Arafat, I hold little hope that a solution can be arrived at any time in the foreseeable future.
 

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my heart broke when i saw the propoganda posted by er_chaser until i saw the rational reponses posted by heat, maddog, cheetah and several others. israeli society while from from perfect is the only one in the region that begins to resemble or aspire to western ideals and views on human rights. the fact that any society becomes hardened and prone to errors after 40 years of brutilzation should be no surprise. americans are a people that want law and order...but history has shown that when push comes to shove we choose order first! the israelis are no different...they are fighting for survival. a few months ago commentator George Will astutely and ironically pointed out that the only court in the middle east in which an arab accused of political crimes could have a fair trial is in front of the israeli supreme court!!!
the photos posted by er-chaser remind me of the video clip from the first israeli incursion into the west bank this year when a supposedly murdered innocent palestinian is being taken away by his friends on a stretcher...what an outrage... the israelis massacaring innocents!!! then the guy falls off the stretcher and runs off...goebells would be proud. bulls**t!!!!
 

Tzar

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Re: Re: Re: Isreal needs America's support

Originally posted by Southern Dandy


I'll end my message with the observation that I'm not an Israeli sympathizer per se. Personally, I believe some of their policies (the continued promulgation of the controversial settlements in the West Bank, for example) have created some of the situation that is their reality today. However, the refusal of the Palestinian "leadership" (and that's a loose term for it) to engage in constructive and intelligent dialogue in the creation of an independent Palestinian state while tacitly encouraging the activities of Hamas, et al have only exacerbated an already bad situation. Until a leader of substance replaces Arafat, I hold little hope that a solution can be arrived at any time in the foreseeable future.
Very good points. I think the main problem that the Palestinians must address is political fragmentation among themselves. In spite of him being a legend in the eyes of Palestinians, I don't believe Arafat controls or has much influence left with the Hamas or the Hezbollah or any of these terrorist groups. They seem to have pretty much their own agenda.

So Arafat has become irrelevant. When a new leader will emerge, he will have the very difficult task of reuniting again all the Palestinian factions...Not an easy task, especially that there is no emerging second leader in sight for the Palestinians.

Regarding Israel, this society is slowly decaying into a paranoid and violence-stricken state. You can't be on a perpetual war footing, and under extreme tension like they are at this moment without having perverse social effects in the long run. I don't believe they are beginning to resemble Western democracies. To the contrary, such a tense climate fosters racism, paranoia and political blindness.

There are many more Jews outside Israel on Earth than inside Israel itself. The vast majority of moderate Jews wouldn't move to Israel for all the money in the world. A Jew I know told me that you have to be a blind believer at best or some kind of psycho at worst to accept to live in Israel, among the daily Palestinian terrorist bombings and Israeli military retaliation. It's ugly and it's not fun.

I don't know how both Israelis and Palestinians can get out of the damned mess they are in. The longer this cycle of violence lasts, the more it affects generations after generations of people, and hate gets slowly but deeply ingrained in both sides.
 

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The Palestinian terrorists are determined to go for broke. In interviews, these men seem convinced they can destroy Israel and push them out of the Middle East. They want the Palestinian state to stretch to the Sinai. This is an outrageous endeavour that will cost many their lives with nothing to show for it.

Israel has lost over six times more people per capita than the US did on 9/11. And that is just this year. It is impossible for Israel to consider any peace terms with the Palestinians under threat. Their only response to the attacks, is to use force in senseless military actions that does little to protect their people. There is no real way for the IDF to be effect, yet not slaughter civilians. These terrorists hide among their own population, using children as cover.

I view accounts of atrocities committed against Palestinians with caution. Propaganda has been a tool used by both sides, particularly the Palestinians. However, I do know the IDF is might kill innocent people in their pursuit of terrorists.

Arafat has misled his people for selfish reasons. The leader realized that it's better to be oppressed than free. Right now the Palestinian government is enjoying support from a number of resources, including Israel. Should Palestine achieve independence, Arafat's first official act might be to file bankruptcy. In addition, without the Israelis to blame, the Palestinian people will find out just what kind of leader they have. The internal problems for years held in check by the Israeli-Palestine conflict will burst likely leading to civil war. Arafat doesn't want to go down in the history books as the founder of a failed state and liar.

Arafat is a dictator and terrorists. While I don't believe he is directing the terrorist network, he likely knows more than what is being said. At the very least, he ignores the activity, if not encourage it out right. Although, I admit that from listening to some of the terrorists, Arafat's control is minimum, if any at this stage.

The future looks very grim. Arafat is aging. He has yet to groom a predecessor. His "regime" is filled with a bunch of people who blindly support his ideals, if not are more radical. None possess the leadership skills needed to guide a nation to independence. If the Palestinian people want freedom, they will have to look beyond the Arafat regime. Barak was prepared to grant many concessions in July of 2000, but Arafat simply ignored this.

Escalation will continue. The terrrorist will hit Israel. Israel will hit the Palestinians harder. I can't tell Israel not to act when I know I would probably be demanding military action in similar conditions. As Cheetah772 said, the Palestinians have to halt the terrorist attacks first. Then Israel will have time to think through this.

I believe the Palestinians will achieve peace faster through less violent means. I personally would encourage the creation of Palestine state if the Palestinians chose a non-violent course. I would denounce Israel if they continued military action and did not re-instate Barak's offer. However, first the Palestinians must prove how committed they are to peace and stop killing Israelis, justifying retaliation and the continuation of the violent cycle.

Both sides are committing atrocities. The Israelis can't have clean hands. I just don't believe that. However, the bloodshedding starts and stops with the Palestinians.

All I hope is the US isn't drawn into this conflict. I know there was discussion of sending in Peacekeepers if Barak's offer was accepted. However, I'm not sure I want the US military on the ground. It could cause more problems than it solve, with the Palestinians viewing it as replacing one occupation force with another.
 

ER_Chaser

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Originally posted by Keef
my heart broke when i saw the propoganda posted by er_chaser until i saw the rational reponses posted by heat, maddog, cheetah and several others. israeli society while from from perfect is the only one in the region that begins to resemble or aspire to western ideals and views on human rights. the fact that any society becomes hardened and prone to errors after 40 years of brutilzation should be no surprise. americans are a people that want law and order...but history has shown that when push comes to shove we choose order first! the israelis are no different...they are fighting for survival. a few months ago commentator George Will astutely and ironically pointed out that the only court in the middle east in which an arab accused of political crimes could have a fair trial is in front of the israeli supreme court!!!
the photos posted by er-chaser remind me of the video clip from the first israeli incursion into the west bank this year when a supposedly murdered innocent palestinian is being taken away by his friends on a stretcher...what an outrage... the israelis massacaring innocents!!! then the guy falls off the stretcher and runs off...goebells would be proud. bulls**t!!!!
Reef: this is exactly one of the reason why I always wanted to stay out of mideast issue.
---- because when I really talk about my views, BOTH sides will hate me although I believe I am thinking for BOTH sides' good.

First of all, I am not an Israeli/Jewish hater... not at all. There is no reason I wanna bash them. On the contrary, from a very selfish point of view, also as you may know, Israel is actually the best friend of China in this world ---- it not only never objected anything China did (pretty much instead, they supported), but also offered most precious help that China needs. As a Chinese, I truly take them as good friends. (of course..)
Further I am very against the violence and indifference that the Palestine extremists groups had shown in their actions. Again one narrow nationalist's example was that when the suicide bomber months ago blowed up a bus and three Chinese were among the victims, a Chinese journalist asked one of the leader of Hama (or something like that..I never bother to remember their names..) about the issue, the guy did not even say sorry. Instead, he implied something like anyone helps the Israelis deserves that or something close... anyway, somthing rediculous.

The point I felt pretty sad when seeing their situation is getting something like showing in the picture is that I felt it is more and more hopeless in that region. Both sides have fanatics and both sides have innocent people who really wanted to live peacefully. The Palestinians are very wrong in hoping that those stupid suicide bombers could change anything or get the Israelis out. They too much underestimated their enemies. Actually if just one of them think this way: if we are not to summit to the Israeli tanks and nukes, why would the Israeli summit to our pathetic little bombs? --- that probably will make them behave much more rationally. But on the other hand, if the picture is showing something really going on from the Israeli side (Reef, HEAT, etc: you are also right being conservative about the credibility of those "news", I am also not convinced either. And I wish it is untrue.), they are doing something also very wrong ---- not from humanity point of view, but for their own sake. If you would strip and beat an innocent man just out of fear ( ---- and hope that would stop the bombs?) --- then why would any of them stay "innocent"? Those people (the right now non-extremists) could potentially work for either side, but this kind of act simply pushes them to your enemy. The key point is you gotta give them some hope ---- otherwise anyway they feel they will die, what do you expect them to do?

But this cycle, as Tzar and deltapooh also mentioned, just sees no end. At least now, from my point of view, I see no hope. (oh some1 may say, just beat the crap out of those stupid palestinians... until they learn the lesson and stop.... well, they were already beaten up and had nothing to lose at this point, how will more beats do anything to change them? Then kill them all? Com'on, do not be childish...) A tragedy with no hope to end is a more tragedy. That is how I feel ---- and I do not know any solution ---- that is the other key point why I always wanted to stay out of the damn issue.
 

Tzar

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Personally, I can't support any side in this conflict. If some people interpreted my previous post as one supporting the Palestinians, they are missing the point. I just wanted to point out the big gap in terms of military power between Israel and Palestinians, but it is in now way an excuse for the Palestinians terrorist bombing.

At this point, both sides are out of their minds and they are both wrong in their activities, whether it is a Palestinian bombing a bus and killing a dozen Israelis, or whether it is an Israeli missile that is slamming a Palestinian village and killing a dozen Palestinians.

And I don't give a damn about the fact that this is supposedly Holy land for the Jews or Holy land for the Muslims. That's religious crap. With all the suffering and inhuman acts that have happened over there, there is nothing Holy left in this land anymore.

Perhaps the only way out of this will be to have one side make a first gesture of compromise and asks the other side to reply with an equivalent gesture of compromise. Then the side who made the first gesture does another compromise, and asks for an equivalent one again. And so on, in the hope that he cycle of never-ending violence is slowly replaced by a cycle of peace.

Example of a gesture by Israelis: they announced that they completely withdraw out of the Palestinian territories. In exchange, Israel asks Palestinians groups to stop all terrorist attacks. Israel says that if after a period of 3 months following their withdrawal there have been absolutely no terrorist attacks against Israelis, they are ready to seriously come back to the negotiation table and make other compromises.

The Palestinians could also start this cycle by saying that they will stop completely terrorist attacks for a period of 3 months. After these 3 months without attacks, they leave one more month to the IDF to withdraw from occupied territories. If Israel responds positively and withdraws its forces, then the Palestinians announce they stop indefinetly terrorist attacks and come back to the negotiation table if Israel is ready to do the same.

It doesn't matter who makes the first gesture, although the side who moves first has the advantage of putting the international pressure on the other side to respond posivitely. If the second side doesn't follow up, they bear the responsibility of this missed chance.
 

Siberian HEAT

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Originally posted by Tzar


The Palestinians could also start this cycle by saying that they will stop completely terrorist attacks for a period of 3 months. After these 3 months without attacks, they leave one more month to the IDF to withdraw from occupied territories. If Israel responds positively and withdraws its forces, then the Palestinians announce they stop indefinetly terrorist attacks and come back to the negotiation table if Israel is ready to do the same.

It doesn't matter who makes the first gesture, although the side who moves first has the advantage of putting the international pressure on the other side to respond posivitely. If the second side doesn't follow up, they bear the responsibility of this missed chance.
The only point of flaw in your plan (and I do agree something similar NEEDS to happen)...is that there are in fact THREE sides to this conflict. The Israeli's, the Palestinians themselves, and then the Palestinian terrorists. While the Palestinians might be willing to agree to compromises, the terrorists have stated in no uncertain terms that the ONLY thing that matters to them is the elimination of Israel. Therefore, when Israel says it needs 3 months of quiet before negotiating with the Pals...the THIRD side steps in and blows up some kids. And sadly, Israel makes no distinction between the two and punishes both factions seemingly without regard for the differences.

To be fair however, the only people who can stop the terrorists are the Palestinian moderates. They need to do some house cleaning and root out those who would stop the peace process. It would be like a man coming out of his first floor flat with a white flag, while on the roof he has a sniper picking off the negotiators. Currently, the Palestinians are unwilling to go up to their own roof and get rid of that sniper. Until that happens there will never be peace. :cry:
 

Dr Zaius

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Both sides are pretty guilty of human rights violations in this thing. Arafat is a complete idiot that is exploiting the situation for his own personal gain, although it's getting harder to see exactly what that gain might be. He lives half of his life in isolation, surrounded by crumbling buildings and debris. What exactly he thinks he is "leading" is a mystery to me.

To be honest, I see very little hope for peace here. Even when President Clinton and the whole European community put their full weight behind the peace process it was derailed by extremists and terrorists. Arafat's failure to actually accept any plan that was placed before provides solid evidence that the man is not truly interested in a Palestinian state. I'm not sure I understand what his true intentions are anymore.

More than likely, the only way this thing is going to end is when one side imposes its will on the other with military force. Considering that Israel has nuclear weapons, I doubt if the Arabs have much success in that directon.

I agree with what was said above about the Israeli state. Although it is the only democratic nation in the region, the continual blooshed has take a deep toll on the Israeli government and people. They are degenerating into something that is not a whole lot better than the failed Arab states that surround them. Unfortunately, I don't see much hope for them either. This is a nightmare situation from a diplomatic point of view.
 

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I must say that I probably support Israel almost completely in this conflict. I mean, look at some things that have happened: Palestinians (sorry if I spelled it wrong) demand Israeli troops to leave their occupied territories, they do leave after a long time most likely, and when they do leave and return to their home provinces, they GET ATTACKED AGAIN. Why? BECAUSE THEY (the Israelis) ARE THERE. THEY LIVE AND EXIST THERE, SO THEY GET ATTACKED BY SUICIDE BOMBERS GOING AFTER INNOCENT PEOPLE . This is pure TERRORISM, in my opinion. Wether the picture is true or not is none of my concern. If you saw your country's way of life and peace whittled away, little by little, day after day, you have to guarantee that someone or some people will go over the edge and lose control after seeing what these people have done to your friends, family, and people. I am not saying that killing that man was justified, I am saying that people should already know that stuff like that happens. When Arafat leaves his position (he dies), there will be even more chaos in the Middle East. I believe that there should be US or UN intervention, but, that could spell even more problems.
 

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There certainly is a need for UN or US intervention. But if peacekeepers are deployed they would be seen as Isreali allies. The palestinians do have reason to think that the westerners are homey with the IDF. In order for a true international intervention to work Arafat needs to be disabled, terrorists cells need to be destroyed by non-isrealis. Oh yeah, the IDF needs to go.
 
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