The only thing that makes me sicker than seeing this, is the fact the bomber's father (the bomber was 23 btw) was PROUD of his son for blowing up the bus.Originally posted by Maddog
No need to try to figure out what happened here. Hamas has already taken credit for it.
I agree. I am positively sure that most Palestinians would be happy to regroup into an organized combat force to fight face-to-face the Israeli Army, in a fair and loyal fight.Originally posted by Cheetah772
If Palestinians want their independence, then let me say with harsh words -- if Palestinians want to fight for their independence, then my advise to them is to fight Israeli Army, not a bunch of high school kids and elderly people who have nothing to defend themselves -- at least they can get some respect from me.
Yes. Incidentally, the Vietnamese happened to get the backing of two large superpowers in their fight: China and USSR. Not surprinsingly, after a while they were able to move on from terrorist attacks to more serious military operations, in a fair fight with American forces. Not exactly the case of the Palestinians.Originally posted by Cheetah772
Vietnamese did resort to terrorist methods, but for the most part, they deserve respect in fighting off Chinese, Japanese, French, and at last American troops from their homeland. They have won my respect.
Originally posted by Tzar
Unfortunately for them, they fell on the wrong side of History in the last 40 years:
They don't have a superpower whose taxpayers are pouring billions of dollars in their government to help them get weapons, tanks, and guns.
And since they did not get almost completely exterminated 60 years ago in a horrible genocide by a mad German leader, they cannot go elsewhere on Earth try to kick out some inhabitants out of their lands and grab it in the name of their God.
So, because of all that and some more, Israel has tanks. Howitzers. Armored troop carriers. Heavy machine guns. SAM missiles. Attack helicopters. Jet fighters. Jericho nuclear missiles.
And let's see what's the Palestinians got:
Very good points. I think the main problem that the Palestinians must address is political fragmentation among themselves. In spite of him being a legend in the eyes of Palestinians, I don't believe Arafat controls or has much influence left with the Hamas or the Hezbollah or any of these terrorist groups. They seem to have pretty much their own agenda.Originally posted by Southern Dandy
I'll end my message with the observation that I'm not an Israeli sympathizer per se. Personally, I believe some of their policies (the continued promulgation of the controversial settlements in the West Bank, for example) have created some of the situation that is their reality today. However, the refusal of the Palestinian "leadership" (and that's a loose term for it) to engage in constructive and intelligent dialogue in the creation of an independent Palestinian state while tacitly encouraging the activities of Hamas, et al have only exacerbated an already bad situation. Until a leader of substance replaces Arafat, I hold little hope that a solution can be arrived at any time in the foreseeable future.
Reef: this is exactly one of the reason why I always wanted to stay out of mideast issue.Originally posted by Keef
my heart broke when i saw the propoganda posted by er_chaser until i saw the rational reponses posted by heat, maddog, cheetah and several others. israeli society while from from perfect is the only one in the region that begins to resemble or aspire to western ideals and views on human rights. the fact that any society becomes hardened and prone to errors after 40 years of brutilzation should be no surprise. americans are a people that want law and order...but history has shown that when push comes to shove we choose order first! the israelis are no different...they are fighting for survival. a few months ago commentator George Will astutely and ironically pointed out that the only court in the middle east in which an arab accused of political crimes could have a fair trial is in front of the israeli supreme court!!!
the photos posted by er-chaser remind me of the video clip from the first israeli incursion into the west bank this year when a supposedly murdered innocent palestinian is being taken away by his friends on a stretcher...what an outrage... the israelis massacaring innocents!!! then the guy falls off the stretcher and runs off...goebells would be proud. bulls**t!!!!
The only point of flaw in your plan (and I do agree something similar NEEDS to happen)...is that there are in fact THREE sides to this conflict. The Israeli's, the Palestinians themselves, and then the Palestinian terrorists. While the Palestinians might be willing to agree to compromises, the terrorists have stated in no uncertain terms that the ONLY thing that matters to them is the elimination of Israel. Therefore, when Israel says it needs 3 months of quiet before negotiating with the Pals...the THIRD side steps in and blows up some kids. And sadly, Israel makes no distinction between the two and punishes both factions seemingly without regard for the differences.Originally posted by Tzar
The Palestinians could also start this cycle by saying that they will stop completely terrorist attacks for a period of 3 months. After these 3 months without attacks, they leave one more month to the IDF to withdraw from occupied territories. If Israel responds positively and withdraws its forces, then the Palestinians announce they stop indefinetly terrorist attacks and come back to the negotiation table if Israel is ready to do the same.
It doesn't matter who makes the first gesture, although the side who moves first has the advantage of putting the international pressure on the other side to respond posivitely. If the second side doesn't follow up, they bear the responsibility of this missed chance.