Human Wave - should it be excluded sometimes?

[Vic Provost]

Would it be historically correct to deny the Russians the ability in certain battles to conduct a Human Wave (A25.23)?

If so, when? If not, why not?

I'm thinking that certain battles, or certain Russian units wouldn't use a Human Wave attack possibly due to: 1) lack of manpower, 2) elite status of unit

What say you?

I would say any battle post 1942 they had learned their lessons due to mass casualties in other failed Human Waves and would not do this unless they have an overwhelming numbers advantage and can simply boll the defenders over. Combined arms is way more efficient, the Russian Army in 43-45 understood this up to the Germans ultimate defeat.

 

[Vic Provost]

Nor is it allowed in any of the Twilight of the Reich scenarios given how late in the war the scenarios are set. None of my research indicated that the Soviets employed such Human Wave tactics covered by the TotR scenarios. Instead, research indicated that the Soviets employed for their urban battles more of a dedicated assault group structure of combined infantry, assault engineers, MGs, FTs, armor formations supported often by direct fire ordnance.

Combined arms is a hell of a lot better option than Human Waves, they might be needed pre 43 but not likely after. Every time I tried it all it did was hasten my defeat.

 

[DonWPetros]

I have unashamedly stolen this reference from the internet. It is what it is.

The Battle of Psel
The Totenkopf made a night-time raid to seize a key hill above the Psel but it was driven back. The Soviets kept up their pressure on the right flank of Hausser's corps, sending repeated human-wave attacks against the 167th Infantry Division that had just relieved the Totenkopf. Thousands of Russian infantrymen, many of them press-ganged civilians, were mown down by well-aimed artillery fire that was called down within a few hundred metres of the German frontline.

Were there really press-ganged civilians at Kursk? I don't know but if your scenario involves desparate (counter)attacking with masses of poorly trained troops then a Human Wave might be the only decent tactical choice.

Even in 1945 the Russians weren't afraid of losses, but they were much better in keeping their losses down by using better small unit tactics. Supposedly in 1945 Zhukov was questioned by an observer about the Soviet attacks through German minefields instead of going around or calling up engineers. Zhukov said that the infantry had basic training in dealing with minefields and they would take less casualties if they went through the minefield rather than around (and into the German prepared fires).

From my own Kursk readings, I'd not heard of 'press-ganged civilian' attacks. In reading Glanz about the Psel battles around Prokhorovka, I didn't run across this reference. Who knows?
The research on the fighting that my scenarios depict doesn't reference such desperate tactics - as the Russian forces seemed pretty well trained, equipped, and ready for battle overall. There were moments in time where things got very hot for both sides, but I didn't read about any sort of human wave action.

 

[von Marwitz]

Human Waves...
Every time I tried it all it did was hasten my defeat.

Unless a scenario design is built around a Human Wave, which can normally be gleaned, I agree that your assessment is the most likely outcome.

And this is why barring HW by SSR is unneccessary IMHO.

von Marwitz

 

[FrankH.]

I have unashamedly stolen this reference from the internet. It is what it is.

The Battle of Psel
The Totenkopf made a night-time raid to seize a key hill above the Psel but it was driven back. The Soviets kept up their pressure on the right flank of Hausser's corps, sending repeated human-wave attacks against the 167th Infantry Division that had just relieved the Totenkopf. Thousands of Russian infantrymen, many of them press-ganged civilians, were mown down by well-aimed artillery fire that was called down within a few hundred metres of the German frontline.

Page 55, Great Battles of the Waffen SS by Peter Darman, Grange Books 2004.

Were there really press-ganged civilians at Kursk? I don't know but if your scenario involves desparate (counter)attacking with masses of poorly trained troops then a Human Wave might be the only decent tactical choice.

Even in 1945 the Russians weren't afraid of losses, but they were much better in keeping their losses down by using better small unit tactics. Supposedly in 1945 Zhukov was questioned by an observer about the Soviet attacks through German minefields instead of going around or calling up engineers. Zhukov said that the infantry had basic training in dealing with minefields and they would take less casualties if they went through the minefield rather than around (and into the German prepared fires).

Good points.

For example, are we sure there were no human wave type attacks in the Battle for Berlin? Maybe depends on your definition of a Human Wave.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Combined arms is a hell of a lot better option than Human Waves, they might be needed pre 43 but not likely after. Every time I tried it all it did was hasten my defeat.

EXC: that grudge rule known as early war soviet doctrine. I have that rule with a white hot passion. -- jim

 

[PresterJohn]

Unless a scenario design is built around a Human Wave, which can normally be gleaned, I agree that your assessment is the most likely outcome.

And this is why barring HW by SSR is unneccessary IMHO.

von Marwitz

I think I agree with this approach.

 

[Augie]

I think that the Soviets did not abandon the Human Wave tactic at any point during WWII. An excerpt from RPT201 Courland Cutoff, set in Lithuania, October 1944:
"Hauptmann Licht and his Kampfgruppe...was able to hold off the first couple of Russian waves, made up largely of conscripted men from recently liberated areas."

That does not mean one could not SSR HW away based on the particular battlefield. But a blanket 'no HW after date X' is inappropriate, IMHO.

 

[DonWPetros]

I think that the Soviets did not abandon the Human Wave tactic at any point during WWII. An excerpt from RPT201 Courland Cutoff, set in Lithuania, October 1944:
"Hauptmann Licht and his Kampfgruppe...was able to hold off the first couple of Russian waves, made up largely of conscripted men from recently liberated areas."
That does not mean one could not SSR HW away based on the particular battlefield. But a blanket 'no HW after date X' is inappropriate, IMHO.

Right, one size doesn't fit all. Best to know what type of Russians were involved vs. what the time period was.

 

[Cpl Uhl]

The Soviet (Russians) probably abandoned it by 1945 and passed it on to their new Polish, Romanian, etc "allies"...

 

[Pitman]

Would it be historically correct to deny the Russians the ability in certain battles to conduct a Human Wave (A25.23)?

If so, when? If not, why not?

I'm thinking that certain battles, or certain Russian units wouldn't use a Human Wave attack possibly due to: 1) lack of manpower, 2) elite status of unit

What say you?

Like a lot of things in ASL, human wave attacks actually represent a broad range of things. It's common (across many countries and many wars) for people to think they are being subjected to a "human wave" style of attack, even if that is not strictly the case and there are simply a lot of the foe (similarly, it is common for troops to think that the enemy attacking them must be drunk, even when that is not the case).

I think the only reason to deny Human Wave by SSR is if it messes up a particular scenario--unbalances it or causes other big issues.

 

[gorkowskij]

The Soviet (Russians) probably abandoned it by 1945 and passed it on to their new Polish, Romanian, etc "allies"...

The Russians transferred the burden of hard fighting (and human waves) as early and as often as possible, dating back to WWI. Norman Davies likes to remind people that the Soviet Union's staggering WWII casualty count likely includes more non-Russians (Kyrgyz, Kazakhs, Mongols, Turkmen, Uzbeks, Ukrainians, etc.) than Russians. The Russians like to take credit for sacrifice in war, but for the most part that sacrifice was borne by conquered peoples (Soviets) who were mis-labeled as Russians.

 

[von Marwitz]

The Russians transferred the burden of hard fighting (and human waves) as early and as often as possible, dating back to WWI. Norman Davies likes to remind people that the Soviet Union's staggering WWII casualty count likely includes more non-Russians (Kyrgyz, Kazakhs, Mongols, Turkmen, Uzbeks, Ukrainians, etc.) than Russians. The Russians like to take credit for sacrifice in war, but for the most part that sacrifice was borne by conquered peoples (Soviets) who were mis-labeled as Russians.

Still seems to be the case nowadays as well.

von Marwitz

 

[PresterJohn]

Like a lot of things in ASL, human wave attacks actually represent a broad range of things. It's common (across many countries and many wars) for people to think they are being subjected to a "human wave" style of attack, even if that is not strictly the case and there are simply a lot of the foe (similarly, it is common for troops to think that the enemy attacking them must be drunk, even when that is not the case).

I think the only reason to deny Human Wave by SSR is if it messes up a particular scenario--unbalances it or causes other big issues.

I would like to know if there are any existing scenarios which give the Russians a significant advantage if they use Human Wave. That would be an interesting study.

 

[bendizoid]

I would like to know if there are any existing scenarios which give the Russians a significant advantage if they use Human Wave. That would be an interesting study.

Yes, Urban Guerrillas for instance

 

[PresterJohn]

ROAR would certainly indicate it is pro-Russian 4:3, but not really a lot more biased than say Rocket's Red Glare. Is Human Wave really the "I win now" move?

 

[Blaze]

I can honestly say, I have only one time done a Russisn HW. It was a disaster. I usually play the Russians very well. Since then, I am sure I could have probably used a HW in a practical manner. But... I probably forgot to due to a mental block from all the psychological damage caused by the first time I tried a HW...

 

[Kijug]

I got back into the game in 2015 it just did my first Russian HW over the weekend. It was fairly successful. In this scenario, a play test, in hindsight, it was a good tactic because I needed to get into the village before the ENEMY‘s reinforcements arrive. Hence, doing the HW against a single ENEMY unit allowed me to get six MMCs to the edge of the village more quickly.

 

[PresterJohn]

If you have a lot of Russian conscripts that can see the enemy ten or so hexes away it is a good way to close up with 8 MF instead of 3/5 MF. Then you can do it again.

 

[Old Noob]

Hurry up comrades! The fascists are escaping!