Hull Down & SMOKE

jrv

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A hex contains only a small, hull down enemy AFV. A friendly unit fires SMOKE at the hex. The TH DR would be a hit vs. the vehicle but it is a hull hit. It would not be a hit vs. a potential concealed unit in the hex. Is the SMOKE placed?

How about if the TH DR would be a hit vs. the vehicle but it is a hull hit and also would be a hit vs. a potential concealed unit in the hex. Is the SMOKE placed?

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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I think it is placed in both cases, you hit the hex - don't have to hit the vehicle. If using a MTR I don't think the Hull Down is a factor at all.
NRBH though.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Doesn't non-LATW ordnance SMOKE use the ATT as per the first sentence of C3.33? That being true, then vehicular size or indeed almost anything a unit in the target hex does has no effect on the TH. If it were HE then any DRM would only apply to the TK/IFT DR, not the TH. The ATT reasoning is that the hex is the target, not any units therein.
 

jrv

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Doesn't non-LATW ordnance SMOKE use the ATT as per the first sentence of C3.33? That being true, then vehicular size or indeed almost anything a unit in the target hex does has no effect on the TH. If it were HE then any DRM would only apply to the TK/IFT DR, not the TH. The ATT reasoning is that the hex is the target, not any units therein.
Area Target Type uses vehicle size. The only things ATT does not use on TH is TEM, point blank range, a couple of BFF & Motion DRM (ATT can't be used as BFF or Motion fire), fire within hex (ATT can't be used at range zero), and Deliberate Immobilization (ATT can't be used for DI). If the attack were HE then TEM would not apply on the TH, but Hull Down is not a TEM and *would* apply. Most target-based TH DRM do apply to the ATT, e.g. moving vehicle, FFMO/FFNAM, concealed, bore sighted, acquired, hazardous movement, target size, hindrances, overstack, cavalry, etc.

JR
 
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jrv

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I think it is placed in both cases, you hit the hex - don't have to hit the vehicle. If using a MTR I don't think the Hull Down is a factor at all.
NRBH though.
Correct on the MTR. I was interested in direct fire, although I didn't think to mention that.

Per C3.33, "All (including friendly) non-Aerial units in the target hex can be hit," so it sounds as if "units" are the primary focus of ATT. Per C8.52, "SMOKE ammunition is always placed at ground level in any target hex which is hit on the Area Target Type," which is a bit like what you say, but then I have to ask, do the other target DRM apply to the SMOKE TH attempt, e.g. target size, motion status, etc? My understanding was that if the hex did not contain any legitimate target then the "hex" could be hit, but if the hex contained a legitimate target you had to hit that legitimate target before SMOKE could be placed.

JR
 

volgaG68

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My understanding was that if the hex did not contain any legitimate target then the "hex" could be hit, but if the hex contained a legitimate target you had to hit that legitimate target before SMOKE could be placed.
This was always my understanding as well.
 

klasmalmstrom

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My understanding was that if the hex did not contain any legitimate target then the "hex" could be hit, but if the hex contained a legitimate target you had to hit that legitimate target before SMOKE could be placed.
Hm... not sure about that, but then again SMOKE is somewhat special. Have you looked for any existing Q&A?
 

A_T_Great

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I'm with klas. It dosen't make sense that if a target is in the hex suddenly the hex would be harder, or easier to hit with a smoke round. The entire hex is filled with smoke when it is successfully placed, so any targets shouldn't make a difference. Perhaps you should ask perry....
 

jrv

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Hm... not sure about that, but then again SMOKE is somewhat special. Have you looked for any existing Q&A?
I'm with klas. It dosen't make sense that if a target is in the hex suddenly the hex would be harder, or easier to hit with a smoke round. The entire hex is filled with smoke when it is successfully placed, so any targets shouldn't make a difference. Perhaps you should ask perry....
I cannot find anything regarding SMOKE, but there are other places where it would at least be likely that any unit present would have to be hit in order to cause side effects. I have always thought that rubble, flame, and shellholes are rolled for/placed only if a hit is achieved against a unit that is present. If not you can end up with situations where the terrain is hit but a unit that is present is not hit. You might also end up with situations where a unit is hit (e.g. double large target) but the terrain is not. I have never seen any indication that this was how the rules should be played, but this has always been in the back of my mind. It would also seem that a ½-inch acquisition would not apply for hitting terrain if terrain and unit are separate because a "½" Acquiredcounter DRM applies only to all Known units (/bridge) in that target Location." So acquisition could also be another cause for the unit to be hit and not the terrain. SMOKE specifically uses acquistion [C6.56].

This q&a suggests that terrain cannot be hit independently from its occupants, but it is by no means a thorough exploration of the issue.

q&a said:
C3. & C6.2 Assume the following situation: A Mortar is 6 hexes away from a building hex that contains a concealed enemy unit. No To Hit DRM apply, so the Basic To Hit Number for the Area Target Type is 7 and vs. the concealed unit Case K (+2) applies. So I need a 5 or less to hit the concealed unit. If I roll a 6 or 7 I miss the concealed unit but do I still “hit” the building so I can roll an effects DR vs. it to possibly rubble it ?
A. No.
The same situation but the building hex is empty and I want to try and rubble it. Do I have to add Case K in this case as well (hitting a potential HIP unit) before I can make an effects DR?, or do I “hit” building in this case with a TH DR <= 7 ?
A. You have to add Case K. {2}
Reality-based arguments would suggest that terrain effects would not be affected by target DRM. In fact it's hard to see why TEM would apply to the TH against terrain, assuming terrain/hexes are targeted independently of units therein.

JR
 

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ATT in general and Smoke in particular are two of the least thought out (or at least most confusing) rules IMHO. One wouldn't think it would be harder TH an area (hex) simply because it has a valid target in it which one may or may not care if he hits in the first place; but I have to agree with jrv that you must include those DRMs not exclusively prohibited. Just a SWAG but my take this is a game mechanic to prevent willy-nilly placement of smoke or resolution of ATT fires, especially vs terrain.
 

mi80j

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NRBH, but I think that, if a Concealed unit were present in the target hex, a +2 would have to be added to the TH DR...

(I vaguely recall reading that, if firing Smoke at an upper level building location, where the ground level building location was both not visible to the unit firing Smoke, and that not-visible ground level building location contained a Concealed enemy unit, the +2 for Concealed target would still apply to the TH DR)
 
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Eagle4ty

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NRBH, but I think that, if a Concealed unit were present in the target hex, a +2 would have to be added to the TH DR...
Even if no unit is in the hex you would have to do that as well (per the above stated Q&A).
 

Binchois

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This has come up before. I have always been of the opinion that regular SMOKE attempts using ATT do not need to target units at all, and are not considered an attack. SMOKE is described as being "placed." Modifiers like target size or conditions like HD are explicitly in effect only when targeting specific units - not hexes. For example (all italics, mine):

D4.2 ...A vehicle qualifying as a HD target is considered hit by Direct Fire only if that hit results in a turret/upper superstructure hit (C3.9).​

or:

C6.7 CASE P; TARGET SIZE: All vehicles (D1.7) and Guns (2.271) are rated for size, based on their height and bulk. Ordnance firing on such a target...must add the applicable Target Size DRM of that target... to its TH DR (see 11.2 and A12.2).​

Case K does apply to SMOKE placement, but that is explicitly stated under C6.2 and seems a game mechanic to prevent unrealistically targeting concealed units.

I think the issue is confused only by C3.41:

"The Infantry, as well as the Area, Target Type may be used to attack a:thumbsdown: unarmored-target/unmanned-Gun/building/bridge/vehicle, and may also attack a hex devoid of such."​

...but I don't think the italicized portion was intended exclusively. Likely, it was considered obvious that the "Area" is what is actually being targeted by the ATT - whether or not there are units/other targets present (which may or may not receive their own modifiers).

[ADDENDUM: Chapter C, Footnote 7]

7. 3.33 AREA TARGET TYPE: Direct Fire on the Area Target Type represents using a lower ROF to shell a general area (usually to discourage movement and/or to keep enemy heads down), as opposed to aimed fire at a particular target...
 
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Sparky

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A hex contains only a small, hull down enemy AFV. A friendly unit fires SMOKE at the hex. The TH DR would be a hit vs. the vehicle but it is a hull hit. It would not be a hit vs. a potential concealed unit in the hex. Is the SMOKE placed?

How about if the TH DR would be a hit vs. the vehicle but it is a hull hit and also would be a hit vs. a potential concealed unit in the hex. Is the SMOKE placed?

JR
as I would interpret it and argue strenuously if this came up during play ...

if the TH DR would be a 'hit' with all the applicable mods the smoke is placed. The location of a hit upon the target is immaterial for what is being fired. Smoke
A normal HE, AP etc TH DR that would have resulted in a Hull hit does not mean a hit was not registered. It meant the target was shielded from the direct explosive effects.

What mattered is the TH DR for the smoke placement.

All IMHO of course
 

Eagle4ty

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Case K is a standard TH mod (C6.2 CASE K; CONCEALED TARGET) as noted, that must also be applied when no target exists as per the Q&A that jrv provided in his post #9. Note: Never is it stated in the rules anywhere, the Q&A is the only source for this DRM having to be applied in such a circumstance but is widely accepted and adhered to.
 

Jazz

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Case K is a standard TH mod (C6.2 CASE K; CONCEALED TARGET) as noted, that must also be applied when no target exists as per the Q&A that jrv provided in his post #9. Note: Never is it stated in the rules anywhere, the Q&A is the only source for this DRM having to be applied in such a circumstance but is widely accepted and adhered to.
Actually, that is not correct for shooting SMOKE from ordnance.

C6.2 CASE K; CONCEALED TARGET: Ordnance firing at a hidden/concealed target [EXC: pillbox/cave occupant; B30.7 and G11.812] must add the +2 DRM of Case K to its TH DR vs that target [EXC: when firing SMOKE, Case K applies only if the target hex contains ≥ one non-hidden enemy ground unit but none of those units are Known to the firer/Spotter]. The effect of a hit that used Case K is not halved as Area Fire.
The Q&A that JR posted talks about shooting HE into an empty hex in the hopes of hitting a unit that might be there.
 

Jeff Sewall

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A hex contains only a small, hull down enemy AFV. A friendly unit fires SMOKE at the hex. The TH DR would be a hit vs. the vehicle but it is a hull hit. It would not be a hit vs. a potential concealed unit in the hex. Is the SMOKE placed?
No. If there are 1+ non-HIP enemy units in the hex, a unit must be hit for the SMOKE to be successfully placed. All ATT modifiers apply. D4.2 states that "A vehicle qualifying as a HD target is considered hit by Direct Fire only if the hit results in a turret/upper superstructure hit." This is different than if it stated, for example, that the vehicle was considered hit but there is no effect.

How about if the TH DR would be a hit vs. the vehicle but it is a hull hit and also would be a hit vs. a potential concealed unit in the hex. Is the SMOKE placed?
JR
No. Potential concealed units are not considered since they are the same as HIP units. If smoke is fired at a completely empty hex, you would never apply +2 for a potential concealed unit.
 

Eagle4ty

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No. If there are 1+ non-HIP enemy units in the hex, a unit must be hit for the SMOKE to be successfully placed. All ATT modifiers apply. ...
Yes, however, they do not apply to all units; some units may be hit while others are not and in the case of SMOKE, it may be placed in the Location/hex if even a only a single unit was hit. Now if the SMOKE was WP would it affect the original AFV (say a CE/OT/unarmored vehicle-possibly with PRC) even if not hit? I would say yes as WP effects all eligible targets in a targeted Location when placed (Note: it does not matter that the unit was originally hit or not).
 
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