Hull Down Declaration

[Honosbinda]

I was just noticing/informing that there was a mention of if in the Index entry - I wasn't making a "point" to "counter".....if you interpreted that way, then I am sorry I wasn't clear enough...

I don't think anyone is disputing that more x-ref. in this particular case would/could have been useful....

hmm, my hull down reference in the index only leads me to Hull Down: (see HD) D4.2. At which point it is still necessary to go to D4.2, which is also the wrong chapter to find the information on TH processes, and there is no direct reference to B9.36. Sorry, but this is the sort of wild goose chase we have to go through to get an answer which could be incorporated in section C. I don't think it was useful in the first place to put this in chapter B, if that's the argument.

Let's face it, simply picking up the rule book in some fashion points to B9.36. The whole argument is that B9.36 is the wrong place, anyway. B9.36 should be point to a rule in chapter C regarding the TH process where the rule should have been written, but obviously is not.

I would personally look up "Hull Down" in the Index first, as I know that the Index will then list most of places where HD is the subject of a rule explanation.

Have you actually looked at the entry? It only points to D4.2. Apparently, I misunderstood that the index entry actually POINTS DIRECTLY to B9.36, and it doesn't. I'm very sorry but I don't find the index particularly useful here in this case.

Anyway, I think the point is made. Is the ASLRB adequate and very useful in printed form -- yes! Is it even better in electronic form - yes! could the latter be optimized? definitely yes.

cheers.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

hmm, my hull down reference in the index only leads me to Hull Down: (see HD) D4.2.

Just for informaiton the "HD" entry leads to B9.36:
"HD (Hull Down): D4.2 [Bocage: B9.36] [Bow-Mounted Weapons: D4.223] [CH: C3.7] [Elevated Road NA: B5.21] [Elevation Effects vs wall: B9.22-.33] [IFT vs Unarmored Vehicles: B9.36] [Setup on Crest: D4.221] [Trench: B27.52] [Wall: B9.36] [Water Obstacle: D16.3]"

..if that's the argument.

My posts weren't meant as an argument/point/disagreeing-with-anything - it was just information about the existing x-refs.


Anyhow, I am thinking that D4.2 should also have had the information that's in B9.36, since I believe it also applies to being HD on a Hill...it's not always due to a wall/bocage. Something like:

D4.2:
"A HD target may not also claim a Case Q TH DRM but it may claim an in-hex Case Q TH DRM in lieu of HD status—the player may choose HD status or TEM after the attack declaration, but before the attack DR is made."


So, where would be a good place in Chapter C for the information (just asking so I can make a note of it)?

C3.31 (Vehicle Target Types)?
C3.9 (Location of Vehicular Hits) ?

Maybe in C6.8?
6.8 CASE Q; TEM: TEM12 applicable to the target must be added as a DRM to the TH DR of a shot taken on the Vehicle or Infantry Target Type or on a LATW TH Table [EXC: BAZ firing WP; HD (D4.2)]. Case Q does not apply to an Area Target Type TH DR (see 3.331).

...or perhaps it could have been a separate rule under C3.31?
C3.311 HULL DOWN TARGETS:

 

[Honosbinda]

My posts weren't meant as an argument/point/disagreeing-with-anything - it was just information about the existing x-refs.

People present information for a reason. You didn't state your reason, so I made deductions.
Generally, I perceive your role: -- first -- preservation of the ASLRB as is-- next --making changes only as necessary and -- last -- hinder/prevent those that are difficult to implement, regardless of their merit.

Anyhow, I am thinking that D4.2 should also have had the information that's in B9.36, since I believe it also applies to being HD on a Hill...it's not always due to a wall/bocage. Something like:

D4.2:
"A HD target may not also claim a Case Q TH DRM but it may claim an in-hex Case Q TH DRM in lieu of HD status—the player may choose HD status or TEM after the attack declaration, but before the attack DR is made."

yes, absolutely makes sense. Thanks for soliciting opinions on this and the next idea.

So, where would be a good place in Chapter C for the information (just asking so I can make a note of it)?

C3.31 (Vehicle Target Types)?

I think here, when the attacker announces VTT, defender choice can be established. However, there is the problem of when the attacker forgets to announce VTT so it defaults to VTT when the dice are rolled. In this case, it might be okay for the defender to choose which modifier he wants to apply, in-hex TEM or HD.

 

[Robin Reeve]

From my official eASLRB :

 

[Honosbinda]

Is the font also that big? lol.
my official one -- bought from MMP via the Wargame Vault -- says only this: Hull Down: (see HD) D4.2.

Unless they've made an upgrade to the file since I last downloaded it, this verbage is the same as the regular ASLRB (non-electronic).

Was there a change made since v1.07 incorporating all this stuff? very interesting if so. But it's still showing nothing directly referencing the TH process sequence.

[edit -- ah yes I see it now, under HD. didn't look there My Bad! But the first reference is B9.36 for Bocage. Why is that? Hence, I would only look to B9.36 for Bocage and Unarmored Vehicle and IFT if I looked at this entry. Not for the TH sequences on deciding when such is applied when choosing between HD and TEM in a building when Bocage may not at all be relevant -- wall does show up I see at the end, in alphabetical order -- but still no reference to chapter C. anyway, the horse is beaten and down for the count]

 

[Robin Reeve]

The references after a title are always in alphabetical order.
Bocage comes before Wall...

 

[klasmalmstrom]

However, there is the problem of when the attacker forgets to announce VTT so it defaults to VTT when the dice are rolled. In this case, it might be okay for the defender to choose which modifier he wants to apply, in-hex TEM or HD.

One could say that if undeclared the default is HD.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Making affirmative statements like this should be backed up with a rules reference and the fact that no rule(s) is (are) referenced makes these prognoses suspect, unfortunately.

If you read what I wrote, I said "I think". I didn't have time to research it, so I offered an opinion.

 

[Honosbinda]

If you read what I wrote, I said "I think". I didn't have time to research it, so I offered an opinion.

nobody wants to commit anymore...!

 

[Honosbinda]

One could say that if undeclared the default is HD.

If you decide that though, then every time the attacker has a chance not to declare, they could do it deliberately in order to force the HD selection. In which case, why offer a choice to the defender at all, if the attacker can control it in some way?

 

[Bill Kohler]

Out of interest's sake, I did a search of the eASLRB and added a reference for every occurrence of HD (with the exception of Chapter H individual vehicle listings), to see what a comprehensive Index entry would look like, wondering if it would make the Index unwieldy. This is what I ended up with.

ASLRBv2:
HD (Hull Down): D4.2 [Bocage: B9.36] [Bow-Mounted Weapons: D4.223] [CH: C3.7] [Elevated Road NA: B5.21] [Elevation Effects vs wall: B9.33] [IFT vs Unarmored Vehicles: B9.36] [Setup on Crest: D4.221] [Trench: B27.52] [Wall: B9.36] [Water Obstacle: D16.3]

Comprehensive:
HD (Hull Down): D4.2 [Abrupt Elevation Change: D4.222] [Amphibian in Water: D16.3] [Area Target Type: C3.331] [Armored Cupola: D9.53] [Bank: G8.3] [Boats: E5.52] [Bocage: B9.36, D4.21] [Bow-Mounted Weapons: D4.223] [Case Q; TEM: C6.8] [Cliff: D4.222] [Concealment: A12.2] [Deirs: F4.5] [Deliberate Immobilization: C5.71] [Double-Crest: D4.222] [Dug-In AFV: D9.54] [Dune Crest: F7.513] [Elevated Road NA: B5.21] [Elevation Effects vs Wall: B9.33, B9.35] [Examples: Area Target Type C3.332 EX, Deirs F5.1 EX, HD Maneuver Attempt D4.22 EX, LC G13.23 EX, Vehicle Crest Counter F5.42 EX, Walls B9.36 EX] [HD Firer: D4.223] [HD Maneuver Attempt: D4.22, D3.44] [Height Advantage: D4.22] [Hillock: F6.5-.51] [Hit Location: C3.9] [IFT vs Unarmored Vehicles: B9.36, C3.332 EX] [Immobilization: C7.5] [Improbable Hits: C3.6] [Indicating: A2.2] [Indirect Fire: B9.34, C1.55] [LC in a Water Obstacle: G12.6] [OP Tanks: H1.462] [Pier: G13.711] [Roadblock: D4.21] [Seawall: G13.623] [Setup on Crest: D4.221] [Steep Hills Road: W1.334] [Terrain Benefits: D4.1] [Trailers: C10.41] [Training Manual: K37, K48] [Trench: B27.52] [Unlikely Kill: A7.309] [Vehicle Crest Counter: F5.42, F5.423, .426-.427] [Vertex: B9.42] [Wall: B9.36] [Water Obstacle: D16.3]

(If memory serves, Tom Huntington did a lot of work on the ASLRBv2 Index. I wonder how much shorter the ASLRBv1 Index entry was for HD.)

----------------
EDIT: I've re-posted this Comprehensive Index example under it's own thread in the general "Advanced Squad Leader" forum.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Usually the only reason not to declare the Target Type is when shooting at 5/8" concealed (possible dummies) counter.

If you decide that though, then every time the attacker has a chance not to declare, they could do it deliberately in order to force the HD selection. In which case, why offer a choice to the defender at all, if the attacker can control it in some way?

"Undclared" in my post was meant to mean = "the defender did not declare TEM or HD" - not what/or-what-not the attacked declared.

I guess - once again - my post's intention/message wasn't clear enough.

 

[Honosbinda]

Usually the only reason not to declare the Target Type is when shooting at 5/8" concealed (possible dummies) counter.


"Undclared" in my post was meant to mean = "the defender did not declare TEM or HD" - not what/or-what-not the attacked declared.

I guess - once again - my post's intention/message wasn't clear enough.

Ha! Either we're going beyond the blue event horizon or deeper into the nautilus shell, take your pick! I take full responsibility for dragging this out to its painful demise.

Normal sequence is: attacker declares VTT and shot, defender picks HD or TEM, then dice are rolled TH.

I guess there are two conditions of forgetfulness:

a) attacker rolls while forgetting to declare target type as per C.9 (this oversight happens easily), this defaults to VTT automatically, but clearly didn't give defender a chance to declare HD or TEM 'posture'. In this case, defender can pick 'posture' after the dice are rolled. Attacker should be more patient.

b) attacker declares VTT type and target. The defender acknowledges the shot without specifying defensive posture of HD or TEM (no current rule for this oversight) then, as you say, default is HD. It's too late to request TEM 'posture' after the dice are rolled in this case. Defender should be more diligent.

Now someone needs to come up with a probability table so the defender knows which is the best choice in given circumstances. Once that's done, we'll know when and if choosing 'posture' matters.

This is realistically portrayed in WW2 movies when we see tank defenders sensing a hypersonic shell coming their way and quickly look inside their commander helmets to cross-reference probability charts, then shouting out to the attacker (hundreds of yards away) whether they chose the wall HD or building TEM at the instant before the shell tries to connect. Such great combat scenes when they include this!

 

[Larry]

The initials "HD" are used 203 times in the ASLRB. The index includes 16 "HD" references. Use CTRL-SHIFT-F and select "whole words only" from the dialogue box. Otherwise you will find things like "withdrawal." Many sections have multiple references to "HD" status. Perhaps some really ambitious person could put all the HD into an article for a Journal.

 

[sfcmikej]

Thanks everyone for the discussion. My query was a result of me missing the information in Chapter B and only looking at the chapter D stuff. Usually I am pretty good at digging out obscure cross references but this one eluded me. Thanks again.

Mike

 

[The Cisco Kid]

I only looked in Chap B first, because I remembered reading something related this year that I read, but I do often check the index first.....good point by Robin.