HS, MG and SFF vs. non-adjacent target

[Norlin]

Hi,
Confusion comes in if I've always played this wrong. DFF'd a MG by a HS at a unit (did not use the HS IFP because I was firing a MG per A7.352) not retaining rate I marked them with a First Fire counter. I then SFF the HS half IFP vs. a non-adjacent target (but closest enemy target) and flipped the counter to the Final Fire side. I thought this use of SFF was legal always, but my opponent points out A7.352 that the HS loses IFP until CC or end of Player Turn. But I had pointed out A7.353, anyhow here's how the conversation goes:

Him:
"but if the HS fires the HMG, he loses his IFP for the rest of the phase...check 7.352"

Me:
"As for the halfsquad with the MG, A7.352 says they lose their IFP for rest of the turn [EXC: 7.353]
Looking at 7.353, this is where they can figure with half IFP as SFF. So basically, the halfsquad loses opportunity to fire a DFF shot if they fire SW, but still can fire SFF at half IFP. Just as a full squad can fire SW plus full IFP DFF, or two SW and in both cases fire SFF at half IFP. Just a clarification, pretty sure I'm right about this, but have been known to mess up even the basics on many occassions Wanting to make sure we're on the same page for this one, pretty fundamental and want to be getting it right. "

Him:
"Regarding 7.353, depends what you group the " vs adjacent units" with. Only final fire or with all of them? Is it an exception for fire against adjacent units or is it global. I'm thinking its a special case for adjacent unit fire only otherwise it doesn't make sense at all. It contradicts 7.352 pretty much completely if its global. You have to ask why did they include the text "vs adjacent units" at all if it only applied to Final Fire....it's redundant.

Will check the example to see if it includes any SFF against non-adjacent units. "

So can the HS SFF its half IFP vs. a non-adjacent enemy after having fired the MG or only vs. adjacent enemy units?

 

[mgmasl]

As I understand, he can fire or IFT or MG as SFF and sustained fire againts nearer units at normal range -usual conditions for SFF- and then FPF again with IFP or MG as sustained fire againts ADJACENT or same hex units.

The only difference betwen Squads and Half-squads is that the first has the option of fire inherent and 1 SW or 2 SW and the half squads only inherent or 1 SW. Squads have to add the SW to inherent or not use it until next opp. Ie if he doesn´t use the possesed SW for SFF, he can only use it for FPF, and not for SFF to a different target. But IMO in every opp for FPF he can choose if use inherent, 1 or 2 SW, or inherent and 1 SW. And for HS, he can decide in every FPF if fire inherent or 1 SW. Of course NTC applies always indepently of what he decide to fire, and sustained fire for SW used.

IMO also the crews of guns can use inherent FP -or Intensive Fire- againts normal range and nearer units before the use of the possesed gun, and again in FPF.

Miguel

 

[Norlin]

Your opinion matches mine, but I need to prove it
I go with A8.3 SFF rules, basically from first shot they get First Fire Marker, now they can SFF per A8.3. But the confusion comes from A7.352 where it says the "crew/HS/SMC that fires any SW/Gun loses its inherent FP until attacked/attacking in CC or the end of that Player Turn (whichever comes first) [EXC: 7.353]"

 

[Sparafucil3]

Your opinion matches mine, but I need to prove it
I go with A8.3 SFF rules, basically from first shot they get First Fire Marker, now they can SFF per A8.3. But the confusion comes from A7.352 where it says the "crew/HS/SMC that fires any SW/Gun loses its inherent FP until attacked/attacking in CC or the end of that Player Turn (whichever comes first) [EXC: 7.353]"

If you search about, you will see that Ole Boe and Bruce Bakken have pointed to this rule as inconsistent with the way the game is played. I think there is some old Q&A that explains this. I have refrained from trying to explain it as it is all too esoteric for me. With any luck, Bruce or Ole will chime in and provide some insight. Sorry I am of no help. -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The "vs adjacent units" in A7.353 applies only to Final Fire - not to SFF/FPF (regarding FPF, MG SWs must be used if they are useable in lieu of using inherent FP).

Here is an official Q&A from J1:

"A7.353 May a HS that fired a SW in First Fire use its inherent FP in Subsequent First Fire vs. a non-adjacent target?
A. Yes, under the usual conditions (range, etc.). [J1]"

 

[Norlin]

Ah thanks guys! that J1 Q&A is helpful!

 

[mgmasl]

Your opinion matches mine, but I need to prove it
I go with A8.3 SFF rules, basically from first shot they get First Fire Marker, now they can SFF per A8.3. But the confusion comes from A7.352 where it says the "crew/HS/SMC that fires any SW/Gun loses its inherent FP until attacked/attacking in CC or the end of that Player Turn (whichever comes first) [EXC: 7.353]"

The key is the EXC:7.353 that says "in both of the above cases, SFF, FPF and Final Fire vs adjacent units RETAIN halved inherent FP for those attacks (regardless of how they were used during First Fire) -although use of full SW/Gun capability during such -IMO SFF,FPF or FF- attacks can negate inherent FP in the normal manner. See the 8.41 EX"

It´s very clear in the 8.41 EX. The only condition it´s the forced use of SW in FPF as per A8.31.

Miguel

 

[peterk1]

I would have to check the example in detail, but I suspect it does not make things clear...It is showing (IIRC) a SFF against an adjacent unit....which does not help in any way to decide whether 7.353 is intended as a special case covering only attacks against adjacent units or is more general.

The more I read 7.5.3 the more problems I have with it.

If you're really willing to push it, you can even make a strong argument that 7.5.3 is saying that a unit which didn't take any first fire at all or kept ROF, must have its fire power halved if firing against an adjacent unit in the DFPh.

I'm going to do a little creative editing to remove the cases which don't interest us....check it out....

7.353 In Final Fire vs adjacent units retain halved inherent FP for those attacks regardless of how they were used during First Fire.

Excuse me?!?! HS fires HMG, keeps ROF, doesn't get marked. And now in DF his IFP gets halved if the enemy is adjacent?

Sometimes I wish that the intent of a rule was stated in plain English before the legaliese kicks in. They had something specific in mind here and are really not explaining it well.

 

[mgmasl]

Hello PeterK1.

IMO SFF has its own rules to decide which units can be targeted. This units are the closer and in long range.
Same for FPF, that it can only be used againts ADJACENT; and also for Final Fire, that can only be done againts adjacent units -remember is an exception for HS that has been marked with a First Fire counter-.

Besides, The main question is if a HS that has used a SW can use his inherent at all until CC or the end of the Player turn, and the obvius answer before to read the 8.41EX is yes. My post only try to make clear that the EXC 7.353 note makes possible all this defensive uses before the first one -and you have not to wait until CC or final of player turn-.

Once we agree that a HS can fire inherent or SW as SFF and again as FPF or as Final fire, the next step is studying if SFF has to be again adjacent units. Nothing in SFF rule speaks about adjacent units. The only conditions are normal range and closer units. So to fire againts adjacents is a posibility and not a condition to the use of the inherent HS FP or SW in SFF. It´s a condition only to FPF and to Final fire if marked with FF.

I think we have to read 7.353 rule as "SFF-separate-, FPF-separate again-, and Finalfireagaintsadjacentunits".-- IMO adjacent units is only applied to Final fire.

This extra and unnecessary "adjacent units" is creating a big problem when reading not only applied to "Final Fire" but applied to "SFF, FPF and Final fire" It´s extra and unnecessary because it´s an obvius thing. The whole 7.353 it´s an exception for use of inherent FP/SW by HS units that have first fired. And once you are marked with a First Fire counter, your only fire in Final Fire is againts adjacent units.

The Q&A justifys this viewpoint.

Miguel and sorry about my horrible english

Edit: I didn´t see your edit after "excuse me?!..."
IMO if you have used the SW -even getting rof- you have to keep on firing your SW as First Fire. If you decide to use your inherent FP, then it has to be considered as SFF, because once you have used the SW, cannot use your inherent until SFF, FPF or final fire vs adjacent units, as the rule says..

 

[Ole Boe]

I'll try to clear things up a bit: A7.353's "Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units" is what could be called something like "Subsequent Final Fire", and only talks about Final Fire by units marked with First Fire counter.

That is why "vs adjacent units" only applies to "Final Fire", and why this phrase doesn't affect units using Final Fire while not being marked by First Fire.


So to make it clear in your ASLRB, go to A8.4 where it says "Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again" and add "(as Subsequent Final Fire)"

Then go back to A7.353 and replace "Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units" with "Subsequent Final Fire (8.4)".


This is highly unofficial, but (IMHO) makes the intention of the rule clear.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I'll try to clear things up a bit: A7.353's "Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units" is what could be called something like "Subsequent Final Fire", and only talks about Final Fire by units marked with First Fire counter.

That is why "vs adjacent units" only applies to "Final Fire", and why this phrase doesn't affect units using Final Fire while not being marked by First Fire.


So to make it clear in your ASLRB, go to A8.4 where it says "Any such units/weapons that are marked with a First Fire counter may also fire again" and add "(as Subsequent Final Fire)"

Then go back to A7.353 and replace "Final Fire (8.4) vs adjacent units" with "Subsequent Final Fire (8.4)".


This is highly unofficial, but (IMHO) makes the intention of the rule clear.

Another solution would be to just delete the "vs adjacent units" part.

A7.353 points us to three different types of fires/attacks that can be done - let those three rules figure out how they work - no need for A7.535 to do that.