How to win Sand and Blood (the Gavutu-Tanambogo campaign) as the American?

Tater

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In Gung Ho there were no LCV counters, and the LCVP are deemed LCV instead. See SSR GT4 in the early verison of G-T. For everywhere I wrote "LVT," read "LCV" instead. That was purely and simply a typo on my part. I will correct the posts. In Rising Sun LCV counters have been included and are printed on the OB.
So are they unarmored or not?
 

jrv

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My very quick analysis of the first assault period: there are fifty-seven water-edge hexes on gavutu and tanambogo (plus-or-minus five; I counted quickly). There are fifty-two Japanese MMC on gavutu and tanambogo, before deploying any squads. One possibility: the Japanese can set up a "perimeter" defense, with very few units on the interior of the islands. They can cover almost every hex with one MMC. Some perimeter hexes they can ignore (e.g. along the channel between the two islands because it will take the Americans too long to sail there). In this case have airplanes make Sighting TC against Japanese while the Marines are still in the water, not in "difficult" terrain if possible. These Sighting TC are "free" in the sense that the aircraft will not make mistaken attacks against ships at sea and do not even consider them "nearby" for a sighting task DRM. For a concealed unit in open ground (not moving) that's a STC of ≤ 8, which ain't bad. Even against non-moving units in palm or buildings the STC is passed on a five or less. The odds that at least one aircraft out of three will pass against palm/building is > 60%. The idea is to use the aircraft to strip concealment then use noba to clear the area. Meanwhile the boats circle at sea until a patch has been cleared. The second possibility is that the Japanese set up a lighter perimeter and more on the interior. Again the aircraft are on the lookout for targets from which to strip concealment and the noba will follow that, but the Marines will land immediately and accept some losses on the beach. The Americans hope additional Japanese casualties from being pounded by aircraft and noba will make up for lost time in the first case, and that speed of engagement will make up for American casualties in the second case.

JR
 

hongkongwargamer

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My very quick analysis of the first assault period: there are fifty-seven water-edge hexes on gavutu and tanambogo (plus-or-minus five; I counted quickly). There are fifty-two Japanese MMC on gavutu and tanambogo, before deploying any squads. One possibility: the Japanese can set up a "perimeter" defense, with very few units on the interior of the islands. They can cover almost every hex with one MMC. Some perimeter hexes they can ignore (e.g. along the channel between the two islands because it will take the Americans too long to sail there). In this case have airplanes make Sighting TC against Japanese while the Marines are still in the water, not in "difficult" terrain if possible. These Sighting TC are "free" in the sense that the aircraft will not make mistaken attacks against ships at sea and do not even consider them "nearby" for a sighting task DRM. For a concealed unit in open ground (not moving) that's a STC of ≤ 8, which ain't bad. Even against non-moving units in palm or buildings the STC is passed on a five or less. The odds that at least one aircraft out of three will pass against palm/building is > 60%. The idea is to use the aircraft to strip concealment then use noba to clear the area. Meanwhile the boats circle at sea until a patch has been cleared. The second possibility is that the Japanese set up a lighter perimeter and more on the interior. Again the aircraft are on the lookout for targets from which to strip concealment and the noba will follow that, but the Marines will land immediately and accept some losses on the beach. The Americans hope additional Japanese casualties from being pounded by aircraft and noba will make up for lost time in the first case, and that speed of engagement will make up for American casualties in the second case.

JR
Great thoughts -
... on the other side of that equation is that the more turns you stay in the water, the more you get shot up by the guns on Gaomi (balance in play) and the HMG/MTRs etc from G-T. Going towards T it might still be possible to wade in (shallow water), but going towards G you sink like a stone and lose all hands on board.

Valid? Thoughts on minimising that?
 

jrv

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Great thoughts -
... on the other side of that equation is that the more turns you stay in the water, the more you get shot up by the guns on Gaomi (balance in play) and the HMG/MTRs etc from G-T. Going towards T it might still be possible to wade in (shallow water), but going towards G you sink like a stone and lose all hands on board.

Valid? Thoughts on minimising that?
Not sure how the balance makes a difference for the guns on gaomi. Either avoid the guns' normal range from gaomi if making a flank landing or attack them immediately if targeting one of the nearby beaches. The best Japanese HMG at normal range attacks a floating LC at four FP, meaning that it inflicts DP on a four or less unless part of a larger FG and/or leader directed. Once a MG fires, use it for your noba target if it is near your intended beach. Noba will also hinder fire through it. Depending on location you may be able to mask MGs with palm trees. If you change VCA alot you don't have to leave a hex. If a hex is really masked, overstack a bunch of LC there. The 50mm MTRs, firing at two FP, are not grave threats. The 70mm gun is a serious danger (and if playing balance, the 75mm AA); do what you have to to avoid it.

Whatever they do the Americans are probably going to take some casualties, perhaps some serious ones (50%?). The Japanese may pull off a lucky hit with a 50mm MTR and sink a LC. Oh well. I would probably have two noba modules and two flights of aircraft to hammer the way in. Three flights of aircraft is not impossible either.

JR
 

hongkongwargamer

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Not sure how the balance makes a difference for the guns on gaomi. Either avoid the guns' normal range from gaomi if making a flank landing or attack them immediately if targeting one of the nearby beaches. The best Japanese HMG at normal range attacks a floating LC at four FP, meaning that it inflicts DP on a four or less unless part of a larger FG and/or leader directed. Once a MG fires, use it for your noba target if it is near your intended beach. Noba will also hinder fire through it. Depending on location you may be able to mask MGs with palm trees. If you change VCA alot you don't have to leave a hex. If a hex is really masked, overstack a bunch of LC there. The 50mm MTRs, firing at two FP, are not grave threats. The 70mm gun is a serious danger (and if playing balance, the 75mm AA); do what you have to to avoid it.

Whatever they do the Americans are probably going to take some casualties, perhaps some serious ones (50%?). The Japanese may pull off a lucky hit with a 50mm MTR and sink a LC. Oh well. I would probably have two noba modules and two flights of aircraft to hammer the way in. Three flights of aircraft is not impossible either.

JR
The balance don't make a difference on Gaomi, sorry. But it adds a Type 88 7.5 (AA 75 @ ROF 2) to the defence.
 

Brian W

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IIRC (and it's been years, as well as year since I played at all), landing on the hinterland is very dangerous as you are not fanatic once on the hinterland hexes, and there's no place to rout; so while the troops don't CR as they would on the beach instead of breaking, once broken they probably are going to die for failure to rout (and again, they lose fanaticism on the hinterland).
 

jrv

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IIRC (and it's been years, as well as year since I played at all), landing on the hinterland is very dangerous as you are not fanatic once on the hinterland hexes, and there's no place to rout; so while the troops don't CR as they would on the beach instead of breaking, once broken they probably are going to die for failure to rout (and again, they lose fanaticism on the hinterland).
By SSR they can rout back to the boats. I think there are some technical problems with the way the SSR is written (e.g. without a houserule or erratum, you can't rally on a boat, and in some cases the boats are required to withdraw before they have a reasonable chance of being rout targets), but if fixed the boats are fairly good places to rout to.

JR
 

jrv

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The balance don't make a difference on Gaomi, sorry. But it adds a Type 88 7.5 (AA 75 @ ROF 2) to the defence.
The 75 AA is another grave danger to boats. Its weakness is its immobility (it has to be limbered to move) and the difficulty in siting it so it can fire on the landing zones while in good cover (i.e. in a cave). If it is outside, blast it with aircraft and noba. If it is in a cave avoiding it is about all you can do.

JR
 

Tater

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My very quick analysis of the first assault period: there are fifty-seven water-edge hexes on gavutu and tanambogo (plus-or-minus five; I counted quickly). There are fifty-two Japanese MMC on gavutu and tanambogo, before deploying any squads. One possibility: the Japanese can set up a "perimeter" defense, with very few units on the interior of the islands. They can cover almost every hex with one MMC. Some perimeter hexes they can ignore (e.g. along the channel between the two islands because it will take the Americans too long to sail there). In this case have airplanes make Sighting TC against Japanese while the Marines are still in the water, not in "difficult" terrain if possible. These Sighting TC are "free" in the sense that the aircraft will not make mistaken attacks against ships at sea and do not even consider them "nearby" for a sighting task DRM. For a concealed unit in open ground (not moving) that's a STC of ≤ 8, which ain't bad. Even against non-moving units in palm or buildings the STC is passed on a five or less. The odds that at least one aircraft out of three will pass against palm/building is > 60%. The idea is to use the aircraft to strip concealment then use noba to clear the area. Meanwhile the boats circle at sea until a patch has been cleared. The second possibility is that the Japanese set up a lighter perimeter and more on the interior. Again the aircraft are on the lookout for targets from which to strip concealment and the noba will follow that, but the Marines will land immediately and accept some losses on the beach. The Americans hope additional Japanese casualties from being pounded by aircraft and noba will make up for lost time in the first case, and that speed of engagement will make up for American casualties in the second case.
Great analysis...

One thing on the perimeter defense...there are a few water-edge hexes that are not ? terrain. The IJN would need to avoid those since an observe treats '?' enemy as "known" if they are in none-? terrain.

I think the Gaomi Guns are a little over rated...in the 4 times I played the Guns never seemed to amount to much. Also in the 4 times I played, not one single marine transport was sunk. I recall 2-3 that were immobilized in the shallows...but nothing sunk.
 

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By SSR they can rout back to the boats. I think there are some technical problems with the way the SSR is written (e.g. without a houserule or erratum, you can't rally on a boat, and in some cases the boats are required to withdraw before they have a reasonable chance of being rout targets), but if fixed the boats are fairly good places to rout to.
Why can't you rally on a boat? Brokies can rally anywhere (either self rally or if a leader present). Is there a specific rule that says rally is not allowed on an LC? Normally you can't break on a boat and boat passengers don't take MC/TC (E5.54). But the SSR overrides all that.

As to the LC recall, as long as a unit capable of unloading by itself is on the LC it doesn't recall. A brokie is capable of unloading by itself...either during the MPh (once rallied) or (possibly) during the rout phase (assuming it can abide by the rout rules). My interpretation would be that the LC won't leave until all the infantry is unloaded.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Is there a specific rule that says rally is not allowed on an LC?
G12.124 ACTIONS: Aside from (un)loading (12.4-.421; 12.45), the only actions allowed by LC Passengers are MC/TC resolution (Δ; 12.13), unhooking of Guns (12.42), wreck removal (12.43), and SW Transfer/Recovery.


Though the SSR says:
GT15. If no suitable terrain (building or jungle) exists, the American player may invoke G14.41 (for routing to Beached LC only) for his units during the RtPh. The broken unit may then remain aboard until rallied; once returned to Good Order, G14.231 applies. Until vacant, the LC will remain Beached and is not subject to Recall as per G14.232.

...so it at least hints (IMO) as if the intention is that in G-T they should be allowed to be rallied while onboard an LC. As always, ymmv.
 

jrv

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Why can't you rally on a boat? Brokies can rally anywhere (either self rally or if a leader present). Is there a specific rule that says rally is not allowed on an LC? Normally you can't break on a boat and boat passengers don't take MC/TC (E5.54). But the SSR overrides all that.
See: http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/gavutu-tanambogo-routing-back-to-the-boats.152710/

The SSR does not change the rule that LC passengers CR. But it allows units that break on-shore to rout back to the LC. Also because the LC are recalled as soon as they unload, they may pull off before the landed troops get a chance to rout back to them.

JR
 
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Tater

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See: http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/gavutu-tanambogo-routing-back-to-the-boats.152710/

The SSR does not change the rule that LC passengers CR. But it allows units that break on-shore to rout back to the LC. Also because the LC are recalled as soon as they unload, they may pull off before the landed troops get a chance to rout back to them.
Well, no, the SSR pretty much does change the rule...seeing as it says "until rallied" and then invokes G14.231 which requires the (just rallied) units to unload. Unless the units can rally on the LC the SSR makes no sense and literally has no purpose. What's more, the SSR prevents the LC from recalling as long as there are occupants...which means if the brokies can't rally the LC is never going to leave.

So, one can call it a house rule...but...by reason, deduction, logic and a little dose of common sense...it is clear that the SSR is intended to allow broken units to rout to an LC and be able to rally there. Maybe the SSR could have been a little more detailed and specific...meh...I think it works.
 

jrv

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Well, no, the SSR pretty much does change the rule...seeing as it says "until rallied" and then invokes G14.231 which requires the (just rallied) units to unload. Unless the units can rally on the LC the SSR makes no sense and literally has no purpose. What's more, the SSR prevents the LC from recalling as long as there are occupants...which means if the brokies can't rally the LC is never going to leave.

So, one can call it a house rule...but...by reason, deduction, logic and a little dose of common sense...it is clear that the SSR is intended to allow broken units to rout to an LC and be able to rally there. Maybe the SSR could have been a little more detailed and specific...meh...I think it works.
Do you think it allows Good Order Leaders to remain on board despite G14.231, or are the broken units restricted to self-rally for the most part? Do you think leadership DRM are n/a per G12.13? Do you think that Good Order leaders can return to LC with broken units on them?

JR
 
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Tater

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Do you think it allows Good Order Leaders to remain on board despite G14.231, or are the broken units restricted to self-rally for the most part? Do you think leadership DRM are n/a per G12.13? Do you think that Good Order leaders can return to LC with broken units on them?
Did you read the SSR? It invokes G14.41 for routing...G14.41 basically says you treat the LC like a building for rout purposes. All-in-all, the SSR is making this a basic rout and rally situation. Again, no reason to make it more complicated than that...no reason to look for problems where none actually exist.
 

jrv

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Did you read the SSR? It invokes G14.41 for routing...G14.41 basically says you treat the LC like a building for rout purposes. All-in-all, the SSR is making this a basic rout and rally situation. Again, no reason to make it more complicated than that...no reason to look for problems where none actually exist.
I take it that's "no" to all questions.

JR
 

Tater

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I take it that's "no" to all questions.

JR
I take it you didn't read the SSR or G14.41...

From the SSR and the referenced rules I come up with the following (pretty easily and clearly)...

  1. Route brokies to LC as if the LC were a building (G14.41). This would include leaders since for rout purposes the LC is not an LC, it is a building.
  2. The SSR clearly allows normal rally in the LC (just like any other none rally terrain)
  3. Leaders stay with the brokies, until rallied, just like the SSR says, G12.231 is not invoked until there are no brokies.
  4. Nothing in the SSR or the referenced rules cancels the limit on leadership DRM of G12.13.

What is so complicated about that?
 
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