How to become better at using AFVs in ASL?

TopT

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I understand the rule as written and explained here.

Could you not get around the rule by expending the MP in the hex prior to that hex that you wish to stay in motion in?

I am just not seeing the instance(s) where this rule (D2.4) would become a big problem but I am curious to see the instance. I need all the help I can get playing. :)
 

STAVKA

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I understand the rule as written and explained here.

Could you not get around the rule by expending the MP in the hex prior to that hex that you wish to stay in motion in?

I am just not seeing the instance(s) where this rule (D2.4) would become a big problem but I am curious to see the instance. I need all the help I can get playing. :)
If a - BoundingFire marked CE AFV- is on a road and only have 1/2 MP left, you can claim that you want to move the AFV into Open Ground for 1 MP and thereby allowed by the rule to stay put in your Location, while some disregard from the rule and claim that you must move along the Road for the last 1/2 MP (and expose your flank armor to the anti-tank unit).
 

Fort

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If a - BoundingFire marked CE AFV- is on a road and only have 1/2 MP left, you can claim that you want to move the AFV into Open Ground for 1 MP and thereby allowed by the rule to stay put in your Location, while some disregard from the rule and claim that you must move along the Road for the last 1/2 MP (and expose your flank armor to the anti-tank unit).
This is a completely different situation. You are not wishing to expend more MP to enter a location. You are simply using the normal 1 MP to enter a hex not using the Road, therefore legal and correct.
 

Fort

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Klas M, Patrik M, Patrik H and James T agrees with us , your reasoning is lacking in MPs
I'd like to hear from those folks as to their agreement and reasoning.
If we're going to appeal to authority, my reasoning aligns with the author of the rules, Don Greenwood, as well as Bob McNamara, Perry Cocke and Charlie Kibler. Players such as Bill Conner, Mike McGrath and (I assume here) Steve Pleva. I'll stack that line up against anyone...that bench is deep.
 

Sparafucil3

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Could you not get around the rule by expending the MP in the hex prior to that hex that you wish to stay in motion in?
You could, or you could enter for less, hope you draw fire or get the SD to go off and then move on and do something else useful. If you don't get the SD or draw the fire you wanted, stay in the hex and claim to burn off the MP's through this method. This whole discussion started because I said if you want sleaze freeze my position, you better not enter for 2 MP's and expect to spend the rest in Delay. An assertion was made that you can spend the MP's in delay, pointing to D2.4. D2.4 says A vehicle may end its MPh in Motion without expending all of its MP only if it has insufficient MP remaining to enter the next hex it wishes to enter. As the moving AFV, the point would be to select a hex which is beyond your MP's but still a legal move. Not only does D2.4 contradict D2.1 (A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex), it contradicts the idea an AFV may "enter for 2 MP in bypass and delay the rest while in Motion" as D2.4 says "without spending". Those MP's disappear. You can't even D1F against them as they are not spent.

The rule is not particularly clear and the interactions between them is not well thought out. YMMV. -- jim

EDIT to add: You could Stop for 1, and Start for all remaining MP's to remain in the hex and in Motion, but the Stop is a risk given the modifier it gives to CC Reaction Fire. You could continue to Bypass around to another hex-side (if possible), by spending all your remaining MP's which is less risky. What you specifically can't do (D2.17) is spend a MP in delay unless the vehicle is Stopped or using Platoon Motion. I wouldn't take nearly as much exception with the D2.4 argument except for the idea that the MP's simply disappear. Keep in mind, you can't avail yourself of D2.18 as you can't claim to spend more MP's to enter a hex until the AFV is actually in the next hex. The applications of this are not extensive, but there.
 
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Mister T

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Not only does D2.4 contradict D2.1 (A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex)
D2.4 and D2.1 are not contradictory, they are complementary. D2.1 covers the case of Bog, immobilisation due to enemy fire, mechanical reliability, radioless NTC failure etc.
 

STAVKA

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You could, or you could enter for less, hope you draw fire or get the SD to go off and then move on and do something else useful. If you don't get the SD or draw the fire you wanted, stay in the hex and claim to burn off the MP's through this method. This whole discussion started because I said if you want sleaze freeze my position, you better not enter for 2 MP's and expect to spend the rest in Delay. An assertion was made that you can spend the MP's in delay, pointing to D2.4. D2.4 says A vehicle may end its MPh in Motion without expending all of its MP only if it has insufficient MP remaining to enter the next hex it wishes to enter. As the moving AFV, the point would be to select a hex which is beyond your MP's but still a legal move. Not only does D2.4 contradict D2.1 (A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex), it contradicts the idea an AFV may "enter for 2 MP in bypass and delay the rest while in Motion" as D2.4 says "without spending". Those MP's disappear. You can't even D1F against them as they are not spent.

The rule is not particularly clear and the interactions between them is not well thought out. YMMV. -- jim

EDIT to add: You could Stop for 1, and Start for all remaining MP's to remain in the hex and in Motion, but the Stop is a risk given the modifier it gives to CC Reaction Fire. You could continue to Bypass around to another hex-side (if possible), by spending all your remaining MP's which is less risky. What you specifically can't do (D2.17) is spend a MP in delay unless the vehicle is Stopped or using Platoon Motion. I wouldn't take nearly as much exception with the D2.4 argument except for the idea that the MP's simply disappear. Keep in mind, you can't avail yourself of D2.18 as you can't claim to spend more MP's to enter a hex until the AFV is actually in the next hex. The applications of this are not extensive, but there.
D2.1 A Vehicle may expend up to its full MP allotment...

note: may is not must.
 

Sparafucil3

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D2.4 and D2.1 are not contradictory, they are complementary. D2.1 covers the case of Bog, immobilisation due to enemy fire, mechanical reliability, radioless NTC failure etc.
Sure, but your list isn't exclusive. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

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D2.1 A Vehicle may expend up to its full MP allotment...

note: may is not must.
Keep reading D2.1 and you will see "A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex." You may elect to spend some of them. If you don't, the rest are spent where you stop moving. -- jim
 

STAVKA

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Keep reading D2.1 and you will see "A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex." You may elect to spend some of them. If you don't, the rest are spent where you stop moving. -- jim
Unless rule D2.4 kicks in.

D2.4 MOTION STATUS: ...A Vehicle may end its MPh in Motion without expending all of its MP only if it has insufficient MP remaining to enter the next hex it wishes to enter.
 

Sparafucil3

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Unless rule D2.4 kicks in.

D2.4 MOTION STATUS: ...A Vehicle may end its MPh in Motion without expending all of its MP only if it has insufficient MP remaining to enter the next hex it wishes to enter.
Which is why we agreed to disagree. It's also why I said the rules aren't internally consistent. If the Intent was "unless D2.4 kicks in" there would be an EXC in D2.1. If they were consistent, you wouldn't have said "delay the rest while in Motion " either as you know Delay without a Stop is not allowed ;) -- jim
 

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Well, from the above exchanges about Motion I can understand why some players feel that they don't do tanks well! Interesting stuff though.
 

Actionjick

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I'd like to hear from those folks as to their agreement and reasoning.
If we're going to appeal to authority, my reasoning aligns with the author of the rules, Don Greenwood, as well as Bob McNamara, Perry Cocke and Charlie Kibler. Players such as Bill Conner, Mike McGrath and (I assume here) Steve Pleva. I'll stack that line up against anyone...that bench is deep.
The Murderers Row of ASL? I would add another name to that lineup, Fortenberry.
 

TopT

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You could, or you could enter for less, hope you draw fire or get the SD to go off and then move on and do something else useful. If you don't get the SD or draw the fire you wanted, stay in the hex and claim to burn off the MP's through this method. This whole discussion started because I said if you want sleaze freeze my position, you better not enter for 2 MP's and expect to spend the rest in Delay. An assertion was made that you can spend the MP's in delay, pointing to D2.4. D2.4 says A vehicle may end its MPh in Motion without expending all of its MP only if it has insufficient MP remaining to enter the next hex it wishes to enter. As the moving AFV, the point would be to select a hex which is beyond your MP's but still a legal move. Not only does D2.4 contradict D2.1 (A vehicle which ends its MPh with MP remaining is assumed to use all those MP in that hex), it contradicts the idea an AFV may "enter for 2 MP in bypass and delay the rest while in Motion" as D2.4 says "without spending". Those MP's disappear. You can't even D1F against them as they are not spent.

The rule is not particularly clear and the interactions between them is not well thought out. YMMV. -- jim

EDIT to add: You could Stop for 1, and Start for all remaining MP's to remain in the hex and in Motion, but the Stop is a risk given the modifier it gives to CC Reaction Fire. You could continue to Bypass around to another hex-side (if possible), by spending all your remaining MP's which is less risky. What you specifically can't do (D2.17) is spend a MP in delay unless the vehicle is Stopped or using Platoon Motion. I wouldn't take nearly as much exception with the D2.4 argument except for the idea that the MP's simply disappear. Keep in mind, you can't avail yourself of D2.18 as you can't claim to spend more MP's to enter a hex until the AFV is actually in the next hex. The applications of this are not extensive, but there.
OK, I had it as you are explaining.

When I play and I don't have a shot I usually just say, "you had to spend those MP's in that last hex" and move on but when it is used in the sleaze freeze way I would challenge it. I have not seen anyone change their move from what they originally intended though. There are ways to avoid the rule (D2.4), you just have to think about it as you are moving the AFV so as to hit your target hex with just enough MP's. The SD might cause an issue if you do not get it and cannot spend that additional MP but couldn't you just spend an extra MP in that same hex so that you stop in your target hex with just enough MP to avoid D2.4? That obviously would be dependent on if you were being shot at.
 

Sparafucil3

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OK, I had it as you are explaining.

When I play and I don't have a shot I usually just say, "you had to spend those MP's in that last hex" and move on but when it is used in the sleaze freeze way I would challenge it. I have not seen anyone change their move from what they originally intended though. There are ways to avoid the rule (D2.4), you just have to think about it as you are moving the AFV so as to hit your target hex with just enough MP's. The SD might cause an issue if you do not get it and cannot spend that additional MP but couldn't you just spend an extra MP in that same hex so that you stop in your target hex with just enough MP to avoid D2.4? That obviously would be dependent on if you were being shot at.
The problem with D2.4 as being offered here is it allows the AFV player to have his cake and eat it to. If I am trying to draw fire and you show discipline I can try for the Sd. If I fail for that, I can try to "spend the rest in delay". If I get you to fire, or get the SMOKE, the AFV is free to move on and do something else. If I get none of those, then I can try to skirt the rules by twisting D2.4 by pretending I wish to be someplace else when we both know what I wish for more than any other option, is for the AFV to be exactly where it is right now. -- jim
 

Cult.44

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One tip is that if your afv is in danger of being swarmed during opponent's movement, keep your machine guns active so you can use them to adjust your facing if needed. That can help keep your panther's frontal armor facing the most immediate danger.
 

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Just remember, only "Oddball" can get out of trouble faster than he can get into it!
 

boylermaker

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One tip is that if your afv is in danger of being swarmed during opponent's movement, keep your machine guns active so you can use them to adjust your facing if needed. That can help keep your panther's frontal armor facing the most immediate danger.
And don't forget that you can't use AAMGs to do this (I'm pretty sure you can't even if they have CA restrictions). I only just learned this after playing it wrong for a while.
 

Cult.44

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And don't forget that you can't use AAMGs to do this (I'm pretty sure you can't even if they have CA restrictions). I only just learned this after playing it wrong for a while.
Wasn't aware of that but makes sense.
 
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