How much "historic potential" remains for scenarios and CGs design for ASL

Bjoernar

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Hello


This is three related questions for all of you that design scenarioes/CGs and all others as well.


How much historical material is probably existing that still may be used for scenario/CG design?

Are there many potential scenarioes/CGs that can be developed during the next 20 years?

Is ASL scenario/CG design close to an end?


Regards
Bjørnar
 

MrP

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There's a whole shedload of stuff out there still ripe for scenarios and CGs. One I've always thought would make a good CG is Meiktila in Burma, 1945, 255th Indian Tank Brigade against dug in Japanese (without a cave in sight).

I don't think that scenario design is even close to an end, it seems like it's polarizing between short tournament scenarios playable in an evening and CG's for those with more space and time. The medium sized scenarios seem to be taking a back seat to these types, possibly due to most/many people having family/real life commitments which stop them from setting up big games and playing for a day.

cheers

Ian
 

wrongway149

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MrP said:
There's a whole shedload of stuff out there still ripe for scenarios and CGs. One I've always thought would make a good CG is Meiktila in Burma, 1945, 255th Indian Tank Brigade against dug in Japanese (without a cave in sight).

Ian

One subject that would make a great CG, and I hope to do some day, would be Longstop Hill (Tunisia). There were two actions here (Dec '42- when it earned the nickname 'Christmas Hill") and April '43, when the Germans finally pulled back (they were in danger of being cut off, rather than kicked off, IIRC)

We have: German paratroops, Italians, Green Americans (with lots of artillery), British Veterans (CoLdstream Guards) and even Free-French Algerians. This was also the action that really saved the Churchill Tanks (which may have been a bad decision in the long run) after a mediocre showing at El Alamein. It is also claimed to be the battle in which the first Tiger tank was destrotyed by another tank.

Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of information on this battle; I have probably found more on Ponyri (which hasn't been easy). If that changes, I'll be all over it in 2007 or so.

There is also an issue of map size, so it may be best done as something like HOB's "High Ground", with semi-geomorphic maps. (Is that still the plan for the Korea module?) and/or large overlays.

Pete ' more good ideas than time' Shelling
 

Pitman

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Bjoernar said:
Hello


This is three related questions for all of you that design scenarioes/CGs and all others as well.


How much historical material is probably existing that still may be used for scenario/CG design?

Are there many potential scenarioes/CGs that can be developed during the next 20 years?

Is ASL scenario/CG design close to an end?


Regards
Bjørnar
There are enough potential scenarios out there for the next 50 years. You would not believe how much remains untapped. I personally, have three whole "want to do" projects lined up for the future, in addition to the three I have in the works, as well as many independent scenarios I want to do.

In addition, I should note that just because someone else has done a scenario on a particular subject does not mean that there should not be more scenarios on the same action. Different designers can come up with very different conceptions of a scenario, emphasizing certain features, adding different SSRs, etc.

I don't think you need to worry.
 

ecz

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Pitman said:
There are enough potential scenarios out there for the next 50 years. You would not believe how much remains untapped. I personally, have three whole "want to do" projects lined up for the future, in addition to the three I have in the works, as well as many independent scenarios I want to do.

In addition, I should note that just because someone else has done a scenario on a particular subject does not mean that there should not be more scenarios on the same action. Different designers can come up with very different conceptions of a scenario, emphasizing certain features, adding different SSRs, etc.

I don't think you need to worry.
just curiosity
are there scenarios depicting the same action?
 

Pitman

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Yes, of course there are. Operation Rosselsprung has a number, for example. I've never bothered to try and count all the duplicates that may exist out there, but it happens from time to time.

One more recent example is an obscure action on the Eastern front involving Italians and Russians. This is a *really* obscure action, yet somehow the Scandinavian "Friendly Fire" pack and my upcoming "Few Returned" pack both depict it (in rather different ways).
 

Danish

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One battle I would like to see is Shanghai.
I'd be willing to help making such a CG if there's anyone else out there planning to look into this.
 

wrongway149

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[QUOTBE=Pitman]Yes, of course there are. Operation Rosselsprung has a number, for example. I've never bothered to try and count all the duplicates that may exist out there, but it happens from time to time.

One more recent example is an obscure action on the Eastern front involving Italians and Russians. This is a *really* obscure action, yet somehow the Scandinavian "Friendly Fire" pack and my upcoming "Few Returned" pack both depict it (in rather different ways).[/QUOTE]

Two different versions of "The Commissar's House"

"Showtime" and "Clash Along the Psel" are essentially the same action. This is probably the best example of two different designers taking rather different interpretations. In fact, you probably wouldn't guess without reading the historical commentary.

I think the most infamous example was that PTO beach evacuation. There was a big stink when Backblast (MMP), Critical Hit and the Rout Report all were doing versions aroung the same time, and each wanted to be 'first'. That's when all the Third-Party hating started. Had to be almost ten years ago by now.

Pete 'we all get along now' Shelling :halo:
 
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Bjoernar said:
How much historical material is probably existing that still may be used for scenario/CG design?

Are there many potential scenarioes/CGs that can be developed during the next 20 years?
I don't think it's a question of how much historical material is available, but rather a question of time. In 20 years MMP will probably come out with 6/7 more HASLs, other TPPs maybe 15/20.

I would'nt count on anything, just be happy when something finally sees print. It's best not to prop up any kind of hopes when it comes to new ASL stuff.
 
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ecz said:
just curiosity
are there scenarios depicting the same action?
With 4000 scenarios out there, more than twice the number of days in WWII (365 X 5 = 1825) it's a guarantee that different scenarios duplicate the same action. Acts of Defiance has been reprinted 3 times. Two versions of Action in Lorraine exist, two versions of Himmler's house, two versions of the Red house, two versions of Ace in the hole. That's just what I've seen right off-hand. Personally I don't see the need for more than one representation of the same engagement. With the plethora of scenario designers out there, apparently it's impossible to coordinate efforts.
 

wrongway149

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Corporal Kindel said:
Personally I don't see the need for more than one representation of the same engagement. With the plethora of scenario designers out there, apparently it's impossible to coordinate efforts.
Richard-

Scenario design is an art, which has its own history and development. Do you think the new King Kong, with all it's CGI and other special effects won't be worth seeing just because the story is the same as the 1933 version? (You may or not believe that, but many would love to see it, including myself.)

Just as we now have new boards or even more accurate historical accounts than we did 10 years ago and should use these, even if it means remaking "old" scenarios, which may be better, or just different.

AS has been suggested, different artists can take the same concept and interpret it differently to make essentially different works.

One of these days (when I finish everything else, so maybe never...) I want to do a "Chas Smith Tribute Album" and take some of his classic actions- even though
they may be perfectly good scenarios now- and do them 'my way' just for kicks.

If player like the new version, so much the better. I may do it just for me, though.

:bandit:
 

robarrieta

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Korsun Pocket

I've been toying with designing a Korsun Pocket CG. The action would depict the German 11th and 56th Corps attempt to avoid encirclement on the Dnepr River in Feb 1944. There have been a few scenarios designed in the past but a full CG would work great IMHO. There is a book (Hell's Gate) which provides a bunch of squad and platoon-level AARs which are perfect for scenario design. Now if I could only find the time...
 

Brian W

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wrongway149 said:
I think the most infamous example was that PTO beach evacuation. There was a big stink when Backblast (MMP), Critical Hit and the Rout Report all were doing versions aroung the same time, and each wanted to be 'first'.
And there might have been a fourth if not for me. About a year ago I get a call from your local scenario designer extraodinaire with a fantastic idea about a medel of honor action involving a seaborne evacuations! Wouldn't that be neat!

Luckily, my steel trap of a memory said, "been done already, twice." I did not know about the RR version.

Personally, I think there is room for multiple scenarios about the same action. However, two is my limit. :)
 

Matt Book

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There are millions of scenarios waiting to be made. I could take 20 scenario designers, use the same historical source for one specific engagement, and we would get 20 completly different sceanrios. From size, to turns, to OB specs, to SSR's, they would all be different.
 
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wrongway149

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robarrieta said:
I've been toying with designing a Korsun Pocket CG. The action would depict the German 11th and 56th Corps attempt to avoid encirclement on the Dnepr River in Feb 1944. There have been a few scenarios designed in the past but a full CG would work great IMHO. There is a book (Hell's Gate) which provides a bunch of squad and platoon-level AARs which are perfect for scenario design. Now if I could only find the time...

Excellent book for scenarios. I have outlined the first action of the JSII against Panthers and Tigers. Might finish it someday.
 

Kevin Kenneally

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Corporal Kindel said:
With 4000 scenarios out there, more than twice the number of days in WWII (365 X 5 = 1825) it's a guarantee that different scenarios duplicate the same action. Acts of Defiance has been reprinted 3 times. Two versions of Action in Lorraine exist, two versions of Himmler's house, two versions of the Red house, two versions of Ace in the hole. That's just what I've seen right off-hand. Personally I don't see the need for more than one representation of the same engagement. With the plethora of scenario designers out there, apparently it's impossible to coordinate efforts.
There are multiple scenarios as you mention, but there is only one "Guards Counterattack"....:nuts:
 

Don Petros

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There's lots of new HASL subjects I think. But given that it takes a long time to design/develop - before submittal to MMP, designers should be careful to choose the right topic. A topic with limited potential interest (ie. Dutch vs. Japanese / the brutal war on Madagascar, etc...), one that's redundant (with some few exceptions - Stalingrad!) such as the Bulge - save that stuff for the one-off scenario. Don't waste your time with that kind of thing if you're serious with a HASL. I think going forward, a HASL should have a stand-alone reason to exist. It should be something new, something that has the potential to generate some heat. Some potential HASL ideas IMO:
- Cassino: still needs a full treatment - have it sketched - would be cool
- Russian front: Sevastapol, Kharkov, Mamayev Kurgan, the southern Kursk salient (dang - can't find one there - others?)
- Berlin: too bad Tapio has that in the pipe. Would love to do the map! should be done.
- Normandy - Mortain, St.Lo, Carentan would be neat.
- PTO: Meiktila (sp?) - have read a littel, sounds very cool. Anybody know much about this? I'd be interested. Kohima is the finest subject IMO - HoB is on this one thankfully. (I've seen the map by Klaus - it's beautiful)
Whatever the subject, it must *justify* using a specific map, should be able to accomodate a 3-8 day CG. Otherwise use geoboards.
Don
 
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Don Petros said:
There's lots of new HASL subjects I think. But given that it takes a long time to design/develop - before submittal to MMP, designers should be careful to choose the right topic. A topic with limited potential interest (ie. Dutch vs. Japanese / the brutal war on Madagascar, etc...), one that's redundant (with some few exceptions - Stalingrad!) such as the Bulge - save that stuff for the one-off scenario. Don't waste your time with that kind of thing if you're serious with a HASL. I think going forward, a HASL should have a stand-alone reason to exist. It should be something new, something that has the potential to generate some heat. Some potential HASL ideas IMO:
- Cassino: still needs a full treatment - have it sketched - would be cool
- Russian front: Sevastapol, Kharkov, Mamayev Kurgan, the southern Kursk salient (dang - can't find one there - others?)
- Berlin: too bad Tapio has that in the pipe. Would love to do the map! should be done.
- Normandy - Mortain, St.Lo, Carentan would be neat.
- PTO: Meiktila (sp?) - have read a littel, sounds very cool. Anybody know much about this? I'd be interested. Kohima is the finest subject IMO - HoB is on this one thankfully. (I've seen the map by Klaus - it's beautiful)
Whatever the subject, it must *justify* using a specific map, should be able to accomodate a 3-8 day CG. Otherwise use geoboards.
Don
I think Aachen would be a good CG. Is there anyone on this one?
 

Kevin Kenneally

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Warfare above the Artic circle

Now there is a lot of potential for a small CG based on warfare above the Artic Circle.

6th SS Mountain Division, 169th Infantry Division and a few others fight to break-through stubborn Russia defenses.

Lots of potential.

Read the US Army book on "German Northern Theater of Operations". This book has plenty of stuff.

Also, "German small unit actions" by the US Army also has some good ideas for this area.

Notice how I NEVER mentioned the "Ubermenschen Finns".....:love:
 

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I swear before the entire ASL community, that as long as I am alive, there will be at least ten new and different scenarios every year. :smoke: They might not all be good... :p
 
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