How is the Advanced Tobruk System different than Advanced Squad Leader?

[mi80j]

"Conflict of Heroes" by Academy Games has been, in my experience, a great way to introduce someone to tactical ww2 wargaming. I have gotten two friends into ASL by first teaching them "Storms of Steel" (1st edition).

 

[BW92]

"Conflict of Heroes" by Academy Games has been, in my experience, a great way to introduce someone to tactical ww2 wargaming. I have gotten two friends into ASL by first teaching them "Storms of Steel" (1st edition).

Now that is a good post -

 

[mi80j]

I am continually amused by the ongoing need of some fans of Avalon Hill's/MMP's ASL game system - to go to the ATS forum and disparage another game?
I get that some people don't like Critical Hit because of pricing, and their own perceived shortcomings of CH (perceived), .... but the need to try to destroy ATS and discourage people from playing it, based on their own prejudices, is childish.

I started playing Squad Leader when it came out in 1977 - I am quite familiar with that game family....
Guys, SL/ASL isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination - face it.
The entire SL/ASL system is based on fictional and incomplete TO&E's, and the rest is based on questionable preconceptions of S.L.A. Marshall's (largely debunked) treatise of 'Men Against Fire'.
Other contemporary game systems gave a much more accurate and detailed treatment of WW2 squad level combat presented as a board game (going back to the 1970's and 80's).

That being said, I know very well why ASL has maintained the largest player base . Simply stated, Avalon Hill (SL/ASL) was the largest and best marketed/distributed game publisher during the golden age of board games - before the home personal computer became common place.

Once the pc arrived, the market shifted to computer games, and no other board game was likely to generate enough interest to dethrone Avalon Hill...because outside of the existing player base - there was never going to be new legions of younger players spending enough money to fuel a revolution and create vast numbers of future game systems (remember Avalon Hill created the genre in the late 1950's - without any real competition).

That's why ASL has retained the crown in this field - not because other game systems weren't as good or better (better in the final analysis has always been nothing more than personal taste anyway), but ASL had already been established and entrenched by the end of the golden age of board games.... and with the new age of the pc, the conditions necessary to change that have not really existed.

So please, save your enthusiasm for the ASL forum - where it's appropriate.

BW

So, according to you, the fact that ATS sucks is okay because...

ASL is not that good...

because YOU say so?

LOL

 

[BW92]

So, according to you, the fact that ATS sucks is okay because...

ASL is not that good...

because YOU say so?

LOL

No, I was merely complimenting you on a non-destructive post.

 

[savatee]

Dead? ATS is dead? Baloney. Ray Tapio is bringing out new stuff every month. MMP puts out something new for ASL every 5 years. He brings out more stuff for ASL than MMP will ever bring out. ATS is superior to ASL as far as I'm concerned. Small operation. Good people. You want ASL? Knock yourself out. Go pay $350 for a module that will NEVER be reprinted. Ray Tapio reprints his stuff with better counters, better mapboards and better rules all the time. When was the last time ASL updated those 1970s counters? ATS all the way.

 

[BW92]

Dead? ATS is dead? Baloney. Ray Tapio is bringing out new stuff every month. MMP puts out something new for ASL every 5 years. He brings out more stuff for ASL than MMP will ever bring out. ATS is superior to ASL as far as I'm concerned. Small operation. Good people. You want ASL? Knock yourself out. Go pay $350 for a module that will NEVER be reprinted. Ray Tapio reprints his stuff with better counters, better mapboards and better rules all the time. When was the last time ASL updated those 1970s counters? ATS all the way.

Well said.
By all means you can prefer what ever rule system you fancy, But the above is self evident.
...and speaking of Ray Tapio, Critical Hit putting out more ASL than MMP is putting out, and new and better counters -.... my avatar is made from Critical Hit ASL Compliant American squad counter from Over There! (just released).

Now, let the dedicated detractors tell us why ATS is so horrible and Critical Hit ATS is all but out of business, etc. - that's inevitable.

 

[mooreshawnm]

I sometimes feel guilty about spouting off so much in the political forum. Not after this thread! Wow the feelings got hurt fast.

I was another guy who started ASL a couple years ago after playing a lot of SL in college. SL was hard enough with all the expansions as it didn't seem to be one clean system. Wow did ASL fix that problem. I came to ASL because of SL so ATS was never really an option, however I read a lot about the tactical level games before buying anything because I know me...I'm gonna buy it all and I pretty much have (hurry up and reprint AoO!). Folk that play ATS seem to be happy with the system so who am I to knock it. Unfortunately I think a lot of ire directed at CH is due to Ray.

I have heard much bad talk of CH and generally where there's smoke there's fire. That being said I've dealt with them quite a bit and I am personally satisfied with the quality of their product especially maps and counters. Some of their ASLcomp is every bit as good as that produced by MMP. The east front Italian modules and Peleliu come to mind.


I don't have the time for another tactical level game and I'm too dumb to learn another rule set. I wouldn't be concerned about lack of new material from MMP...there's more quality ASL stuff out there than a guy could play in a lifetime. I also would not worry if you went the ATS route as long as you had someone to play against.

Seriously though this got way meaner than it needed to be. HKgamer is cool and mellow. Prof may get a little excited sometimes but that's usually regarding politics. Just one guys opinion but the anti-ATS stuff at the beginning of this thread wasn't really anything more than should be expected from basically ASLs fan site...which this pretty much is. No need to take offense guys it's only a damn game.

 

[Brad M-V]

I made some very rude comments and feel lousy for doing that. You're right, no one deserved my wrath and I apologize to all concerned for acting like an idiot. I hope it was only a momentary bout of idiotism and not instead me showing my true colours.

 

[mooreshawnm]

We've all been there man! Don't sweat it!

 

[BW92]

Oh heck, this is a happy occasion,... let's not bicker and argue over who killed who...

 

[larrymarak]

It still exists because folks enjoy playing it. It solos very well, plays quickly, and while it does have demoralized and rallied outcomes, most infantry results are casualties, not demoralization.

 

[larrymarak]

By the way, while the CHMB is just about moribund, the ATSFB page is active everyday and very contentious. ATS will be healthy as long as Ray T stays healthy, and when he licenses it out to TPP, it will keep healthy in the future.
Always found the antiCH sentiment among a few ASL enthusiasts strange. Ray has kept the game fresh ever since Avalon Hill made CH an authorized ASL publisher. MMP has kept the RB and the original boards available, CH had kept new scenario sets and vitally needed counters available. Without both companies there might be no ASL today.