How is the Advanced Tobruk System different than Advanced Squad Leader?

heliodorus04

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I honestly am a committed (returning after 20 years) ASL player, and over the years I saw this system and had two thoughts:

1) How is it different than ASL?
2) The role of ASL has already been taken.

A little research here indicates this game is dead, but I don't know why.
I'm just curious. I don't even see modules for sale on e-bay much.
 

Proff3RTR

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Leave ATS alone, CH have killed it in a major way. if you want Tactical ww2, then you already know the answer, ASL all the way.
ATS did pretty much the same as ASL but with a different way of going about it, counters looked very similar same maps, same scale.
I found ATS was more bloody than ASL, but I have only played one module.

these pages should inform you all you need to know about the state of ATS, pretty much dead IMHO
 

Brad M-V

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Dead? Far from it, it's a great system and more product is available for purchase for it on the Critical Hit website then is available for ASL everywhere else. You can be playing ATS or you can be on these forms talking about playing ASL... the choice is yours! :laugh: I own almost every core item for it now because the only FtF gamer I play refuses to learn ASL. Although ATS is an easier system to learn then ASL, it's surprisingly a very realistic tactical system. At first glance it certainly seams to be a lightweight in comparison with ASL, but it truly isn't.

Would you consider someone's opinion of ASL to have credence if they told you they hardly played it?

Me neither, so same goes for ATS, right? I decided to buy the newest ATS rule book and a few of it's core modules that looked interesting and tried it myself. I now own all the core modules and a host of other items for it because my FtF gaming partner can't get enough of ATS. I'm not so lucky with my ASL kit, and I'm not going to play a board game on the CPU (VASL) so it's solo with ASL even though ATS is better at solo imo. My personal focus is mainly on ASL still, because I've spent well into the thousands on getting every module, map pack, scenario pack and historical module available for it, plus I still have multiple items on pre-order yet.

If I could rewind and start from the beginning again I would go with the ATS system all the way. Ultimately, I came to the realization that the fun factor gained from learning ASL is not equal in proportion to that received from ATS. This is my honest and unbiased opinion, we all have one but don't be swayed into either game system based solely on what I or someone else says, make your own decision men, it's your money! The facts are; it costs very little to get a rule book and module from both game systems when you consider what the cost will be should you choose the wrong system first. <gulp> What do you want to do, spend years learning and buying a system or a few months? How much time and money do you have? Make your own decision, make your own decision etc. etc. ;)

P.S I'm not being a jerk, I'm the only one on this form giving you the right advice and that is for you to make your own decision... http://www.tactical-level-gaming.com/ATS_Index.html <-- does that look like a dead system? Look at all the items for ATS, all new and all in STOCK! More coming, like I said my main focus is still on ASL (I'm still trying to get my money out it;-), but your question was whether ATS is dead or not, so a system with that amount of new goodies for sale can't be dead, question answered... Heck, just go look at what's new and available for ASL, end of story. ;-)

Edit: make sure you click on the large ATS picture at the top right of the first page, that'll take you to a boat load of new and alive ATS items.
 
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Proff3RTR

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Then why is there so little activity on the ATS forum? compared to ASL ATS is IMHO not as active, simple as that, hook that up with Tapio's generally atrocious service and massive price spikes and you are onto a looser IMHO. And look again, yes there are new bits and bobs, but also a lot of rehash of old titles, open the eyes and see CH for what it is.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Perry, that's because by his own admission, he plays the "only FtF player he players refuses to learn ASL".

Hardly makes a vibrant community that ASL is.

ATS is "in stock" at CH because no one's buying them. If there's nearly as much demand as ASL, they will be OUT of stock.

He's the one "on these forms talking about ASL". I started ASL 2 years ago, have 130 games, plays 5 x 2 hour sessions per week, have more opponents than I have time and is looking at 3 regional VASL tourneys as well as a physical meet at Siem Reap in 2017.

Dead stock doesn't make a system live. Real players do.
 
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Proff3RTR

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Perry, that's because by his own admission, he plays the "only FtF player he players refuses to learn ASL".

Hardly makes a vibrant community that ASL is.

ATS is "in stock" at CH because no one's buying them. If there's nearly as much demand as ASL, they will be OUT of stock.

He's the one "on these forms talking about ASL". I started ASL 2 years ago, have 130 games, plays 5 x 2 hour sessions per week, have more opponents than I have time and is looking at 3 regional VASL tourneys as well as a physical meet at Siem Reap in 2017.

Dead stock doesn't make a system live. Real players do.

I agree 100% Jack, some folk do not actually look beyond the trees, and so can not see the bloody big woods in front of them. ATS IS DEAD, Tapio and his marketing scams have seen to that, I have watched and followed what has happened to ATS and as far as I can see it is a typical CH story, rehash kits/modules, poor play testing as a general rule of thumb (not all modules, Psel River is a good one), but at the end of the day people have to make up their own minds, but if I was getting into a Tactical ww2 game system I most certainly would not waste money on ATS, ASL is really the only way to go.

Jack raises some very good points as to why lots of ATS kit is in stock (NO BASTARD IS BUYING IT THAT'S BLOODY WHY!!!!!).

I got back into ASL as you know Jack roughly 3 years ago (June 2014 IIRC) and have not looked back, I have mainly CG under my belt but at least now over 200 games played (my out put has slowed due to map building and commitments to TPP modules). ATS could never generate what ASL does, it may have it's charms as a system, and what I have played (one module) was ok, fun even, but it lacked the depth ASL has, and so to my mind the longevity of ASL.
 

Brad M-V

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Real classy coming into the ATS forms and running down their game guys, shame on the both of you. I wonder what the two of you would say if the reverse happened in the ASL forms?

Perry, that's because by his own admission, he plays the "only FtF player he players refuses to learn ASL".

Hardly makes a vibrant community that ASL is.

He's the one "on these forms talking about ASL". I started ASL 2 years ago, have 130 games, plays 5 x 2 hour sessions per week, have more opponents than I have time and is looking at 3 regional VASL tourneys as well as a physical meet at Siem Reap in 2017.
Speaking of submissions, by your very own submission, the people who are not playing ASL face to face fail to contribute towards this so called vibrant community you speak of? And those not able to match your peerless record which only took you two years to achieved are what, bottom dwellers in this exclusive vibrant fantasy club of yours? You pedestal strutting arrogant pea-brain, you come into this form bad mouthing the company to whom it belongs thinking you and your two year old ASL statistics are going to impresses someone? Well... other then Perry.

Go back to the ASL forms (I dare ya) and spew how wonderful you are over there and see how fast someone shakes just the right amount of reality back between your ears. And take that dumbass Perry with you, I use to think he was a pretty good guy right up till he gave you 100% backing on your post. He has to be the only guy in all of la la land who would read a post like that and have it go straight over his head...
 

hongkongwargamer

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Whilst I understand English might not be your first language. ADMISSION honey .. ADMISSION.

WAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

I know when folks can't win an argument, they go personal. Works EVERY - SINGLE - TIME

WAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAHHAAHAH
 

hongkongwargamer

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So here we go, Your Honor, I submit to you .. the ATS guy. :D

Real classy coming into the ATS forms and running down their game guys, shame on the both of you. I wonder what the two of you would say if the reverse happened in the ASL forms?



Speaking of submissions, by your very own submission, the people who are not playing ASL face to face fail to contribute towards this so called vibrant community you speak of? And those not able to match your peerless record which only took you two years to achieved are what, bottom dwellers in this exclusive vibrant fantasy club of yours? You pedestal strutting arrogant pea-brain, you come into this form bad mouthing the company to whom it belongs thinking you and your two year old ASL statistics are going to impresses someone? Well... other then Perry.

Go back to the ASL forms (I dare ya) and spew how wonderful you are over there and see how fast someone shakes just the right amount of reality back between your ears. And take that dumbass Perry with you, I use to think he was a pretty good guy right up till he gave you 100% backing on your post. He has to be the only guy in all of la la land who would read a post like that and have it go straight over his head...
 

Brad M-V

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Thanks for the correction, I normally ignore spelling mistakes or misplaced words, which your post is full of by the way. Regarding who's winning, you silly bugger you, you did!
Seriously, don't cha know? Yours were the words of a real winner so congratulations, you can now add that to your long list of ASL accomplishments...
 

Proff3RTR

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Thanks for the correction, I normally ignore spelling mistakes or misplaced words, which your post is full of by the way. Regarding who's winning, you silly bugger you, you did!
Seriously, don't cha know? Yours were the words of a real winner so congratulations, you can now add that to your long list of ASL accomplishments...
Grow up man, and accept, ATS is pretty much dead in the water, I see no other fucker coming to its defence.
 

tmanmerlin

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I have been involved with ATS for many years, spent too much money, and am a proud member of the 5 people that have been permanently banned from the CH forum, and probably the only person to post images of game play. Although it would be cool to be back on their board.

I remember when movement and firing were two separate turns. Now a days, there seems to be an overarching statement that , more or less, you can pick and choose what rules you want, and that if the rules re not clear, you just have to be in your game developer/explorer mindset and not worry about it. ( my words)

I enjoy the game, but, I do not like the constant changes, the drift towards ASL rules, and the continuing jockeying of the counter sizes. I enjoy what I have, the art is cool, the counters are great, especially the big ones.

I feel I have been burned by their pricing, and re-issuing.

All in all, there seem to be no players in Austin, whereas there is a great ASL community in Ausitn, San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas.

My strategy is to buy cheap on ebay as much as possible, but in the last 18 months I have not bought because there is just to much stuff, and only a collector of stuff would be interested in it all. I'd love to get some of everything, but the pricing, for me, is not legit.

My 2 cents is that nobody is really into it all that much, to bad. I miss Uncle Ted :-(

Here is the forum view, last 60 days. Maybe I did the filter wrong, but it is an honest effort at looking at the traffic in the main forum.

ats forum.PNG

I don't do face to face, as with family and work, way to busy to spend an entire saturday playing, and would not be a reliable VASL, er.. VATS player.

Take it for what it's worth, but there is only one central Texas player I know, but he is to far, and as I mentioned, no time.
 

Proff3RTR

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Thanks for the correction, I normally ignore spelling mistakes or misplaced words, which your post is full of by the way. Regarding who's winning, you silly bugger you, you did!
Seriously, don't cha know? Yours were the words of a real winner so congratulations, you can now add that to your long list of ASL accomplishments...
Total wanker, pure and simple, shame facts hurt you so much. Tosser.
 

Brad M-V

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Total wanker, pure and simple, shame facts hurt you so much. Tosser.
Wanker? Ok then, I confess I posted the word submission when instead he said admission. Sue me, but to make issue of it like a little school girl when his own posts have more mistakes is just pathetic. A friend of yours is he? I knew he said admission (obviously) because I was responding to his post regarding that when I typed submission, then I was promptly called out for it. The Great Warrior from Hongkong's only comeback was that I typed submission instead of admission then acted like the true dumbass he is, but that too just went right over your head didn't it? You are not qualified enough to be calling someone else a wanker, Perry, so pull your head out of your ass and stop being such an ass kisser... I actually like you, you're a pretty good guy I can see, so please consider this as friendly advice!

Is this form dead? Absolutely, but as you yourself know, learning ATS is not that difficult so bringing local friends up to speed with it is as simple as most other board games. ASL on the otherhand takes months if not years to learn, so yes on-line forms are a must unless playing it solo is your thing, and by the way, you also know the great guys in the ASL forms do not judge people based solely on whether a person plays face to face or not.

Regarding ATS not selling because it's still all in stock, FYI on how things work at CH now, most items there both ATS & ASL are printed by CH themselves when they take an order. It appears he has stacks upon stacks of counters sheets in stock though, because you can order those separately if desired.

An addition to my above admission; Perry, by your own "admission" you played ATS and said you thought it was fun. How long do you think it would take you to teach someone else to play it face to face?
 
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BW92

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If CH/ATS were dead you could not buy their products except on E-Bay.
CH is not dead, it just doesn't have the size of following that ASL acquired on Gamesquad Forums.
So if you're hunting for opponents to play via this forum it will be difficult.

As a game system, ATS and their ASL Compliant system are both very much alive and enjoyable.
ATS is a different take on squad level combat - based on Avalon Hills original Tobruk (pre-dateing original SL by a couple years).
ATS has many advantages over SL/ASL... but by and large it's a matter of personal taste.
 
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Gunner Scott

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There are a lot and I mean a lot of tac sims out there. For example we have Panzer, Old school tactical, Panzer grenadair, sergeants and probably more. But ATS as well as ASL are solid systems with more or less a fairly vibrant community, much more probably then the typical fly by night tac sim. Will there ever be an ATS fest ala ASLOK? Probably not just because ASL is that 500 pound gorilla standing in the corner and will never be moved.

Scott
 

mi80j

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Real classy coming into the ATS forms and running down their game guys, shame on the both of you. I wonder what the two of you would say if the reverse happened in the ASL forms?
I love it when guys go into ASL forums and try to run down ASL... now that there is comedy gold!
 
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BW92

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I am continually amused by the ongoing need of some fans of Avalon Hill's/MMP's ASL game system - to go to the ATS forum and disparage another game?
I get that some people don't like Critical Hit because of pricing, and their own perceived shortcomings of CH (perceived), .... but the need to try to destroy ATS and discourage people from playing it, based on their own prejudices, is childish.

I started playing Squad Leader when it came out in 1977 - I am quite familiar with that game family....
Guys, SL/ASL isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination - face it.
The entire SL/ASL system is based on fictional and incomplete TO&E's, and the rest is based on questionable preconceptions of S.L.A. Marshall's (largely debunked) treatise of 'Men Against Fire'.
Other contemporary game systems gave a much more accurate and detailed treatment of WW2 squad level combat presented as a board game (going back to the 1970's and 80's).

That being said, I know very well why ASL has maintained the largest player base . Simply stated, Avalon Hill (SL/ASL) was the largest and best marketed/distributed game publisher during the golden age of board games - before the home personal computer became common place.

Once the pc arrived, the market shifted to computer games, and no other board game was likely to generate enough interest to dethrone Avalon Hill...because outside of the existing player base - there was never going to be new legions of younger players spending enough money to fuel a revolution and create vast numbers of future game systems (remember Avalon Hill created the genre in the late 1950's - without any real competition).

That's why ASL has retained the crown in this field - not because other game systems weren't as good or better (better in the final analysis has always been nothing more than personal taste anyway), but ASL had already been established and entrenched by the end of the golden age of board games.... and with the new age of the pc, the conditions necessary to change that have not really existed.

So please, save your enthusiasm for the ASL forum - where it's appropriate.

BW
 
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mi80j

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The entire SL/ASL system is based on fictional and incomplete TO&E's, and the rest is based on questionable preconceptions of S.L.A. Marshall's (largely debunked) treatise of 'Men Against Fire'.
Other contemporary game systems gave a much more accurate and detailed treatment of WW2 squad level combat presented as a board game (going back to the 1970's and 80's).BW
LOL

Big chimping
 
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