How important do you think AoO is in the ASL universe?

DLYoung70

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Dave,

I hope my point comes thru a little clearer... consider these two options:

1) Design a new module that includes scenarios, boards, and counters for the Axis Minors (inf, sw, ord, and veh).

2) Re-issue Partisan with the addition of the boards (or not... put them in a scenario pack at a later date) intended for AoO plus the new counters (ord and veh only).

I think #1 is more work, and therefore unnecessary. As others have mentioned, except for the boards and scenarios, the issuance of the entire AxMi OoB effectively removes Partisan as a "core module" because the counters in it are reproduced in AoO. Why? Why not just update Partisan? It's half the work... no new scenarios needed (or maybe a couple to make use of the new ord and veh counters). More so, it already contains the inf and sw counters... why would anyone buy Partisan now that those are available elsewhere? Do you print inf/sw counters for both modules... one of which no one is likely to bother buying (except for scenarios or boards)? Or do you let Partisan go OOP?

If all MMP had to do was add a couple of countersheets and some Chapter H notes to an existing module (Partisan), it would have been done long ago. But instead they chose to make an entire big project out of it... new scenarios, re-issued counters, etc... and the rest is history.

They did the same thing with FKaC. Talk about 100% unnecassary! For owners of WoA, it's an $80 scenario pack! For those who don't own WoA, it replaces something that is vital to the system (boards and desert rules) and doesn't replace it (OOP!). Can you even play HL without WoA? Chaos! Madness! Foolish!

The entire line should be redesigned with the intent that any module issued requires only BV (info counters) and ONE other module at most. Something like this:

Self contained:
1) Beyond Valor (Germans, Russians) - self contained, all scenarios Germans vs. Russians/Partisans.

Requires BV:
2) Yanks (American Army) - requires BV, all scenarios American vs. German.
3) West Of Alamein (British) - requires BV, all scenarios British vs. German (desert).
4) Croix de Guerre (French) - requires BV, all scenarios French vs. German.
5) The Last Hurrah (Allied Minors) - requires BV, all scenarios Allied Minor vs. German.
6) Partisan or AoO (Axis Minors) - requires BV, all scenarios Axis Minors vs. Russians/Partisans.
7) Haake Palle (Finnish) - requires BV, all scenarios Finnish vs. Russians/Partisans.

Requires BV + 1:
8) Code Of Bushido (Japanse) - requires BV and WoA, all scenarios Japanese vs. British.
9) Hollow Legions (Italians) - requires BV and WoA, all scenarios Italian vs. British.
10) Gung Ho (American Marines) - requires BV and CoB, all scenarios Marines vs. Japanese.
11) Great Wall (Chinese) - requires BV and CoB, all scenarios Chinese vs. Japanese. This could remain part of GH, as the requirements are the same.

Matchup Specific Scenario/Board Packs:
Paratrooper - Small unit, U.S. para vs. German
For Kind And Country - British vs. German (Europe)
Race To Messina - Americans vs. Italians
Any other matchups missing?

Everything else can be handled with scenario packs, HASL, HS, or whatever. The above setup, or something similar, gets the entire system out in a manner that keeps expense down as much as possible, while providing for a huge variety of combat.

Yes, I believe AoO is unnecessary, just like FkaC was unnecessary. Heck, if they just leave the original BV alone, HP is equally unnecessary. It's poor planning (in all cases) and poor execution (in the case of AoO delays and HP dreams).

But I don't know anything. I'm a computer programer. Logic isn't something I know much about.

Darrell
 

WaterRabbit

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I think you're making things way too complicated. With a pristine copy and a good scanner, they could just remake the modules as they were originally released. Then all you would need in addition, is an errata pack that fixes the errors.

Why bother going through all of the redesign at all? It is the redesign of the modules that causes the problems. Two or more sets of errata for each printing causes tons of confusion.

Another reason to finish the core modules, is that we will be done creating rules. Then we can get a bound rulebook that doesn't weigh 35 lbs. ;)
 

cujo8-1

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Don Maddox said:
Well, AoO isn't what many ASLers would consider a "core component" of the ASL system, unlike the Russians, Germans, Americans, and Commonwealth forces. Still, there seems to be a very strong interest in this particular module. Why do you think that is?
I believe the word 'core' has been used, starting with the old guard at Avalon Hill, to mean an item that builds toward the complete WWII Order of Battle. AOO will give us the armor and guns of the minors. This is the last 'core' module.

Even if one feels they can live without it, it is still considered a 'core' module. That being said, I could probably live without it, but will get it just the same as it will complete my collection. :joy:
 

Aries

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Need more money need more money need more money.

Hmm who doesn't eh.

Why doesn't MMP just do what EEEEEEEEEEVERY other business does when it "needs more money"?

Oh wait, we have not categorically determined to the satisfaction of some, if they are a business or just some guys that pried the rights out of Hasbro yet.

A business seeing a clear obvious market, would go to a bank and tell them look we have a clear obvious market.
Then take the banker to a computer with net access, show them places like here and tell him see they are actually pissed off we ain't making it fast enough.
Then secure a common loan, get the damned cash, tell the printer I want X copies and I want them NOW.
And of course considering they went to a real printer, not some chickenshit operation (I would hope that is the case at least), the copies would get done today, not some vague point in the future that never seems to arrive.

Then with a simple announcement, something like "item X is now in stock. First 1000 orders get 10% off", they would proceed to do business like the rest of the world does business.

All I can seem to say, is Arrmies of Oblivion, should be called the Module headed for Oblivion. Or that is normally the case when the consumer loses any sense of surety that the game in question has a distinct future planned for it.

ASL is starting to look like competition for Matrix Games's tactical design Combat Leader. The game everyone wants, but isn't on sale all the same.

Core module or not, making AoO first, before establishing a firm reliable supply of the actual core modules, is putting the buggy before the horse.

Telling us, we need AoO to produce capital, sorry the rest of the business world tells me you are singing a tune I am not buying.

AoO will provide me something I might use admittedly. Sure why not. After all, I loooooong ago obtained the actual Core modules. I am safe.
So is MMP a service to the old guard? or is it the official source of the full game?

Right now I see it pandering to the needs of an elite.
I see it meeting my needs first and meeting the needs of the future second.

I don't need MORE modules, I need more players.

How I am supposed to entice a new player is beyond me.
Normally when I want a person to join a game I like, the preferred approach is to get them to buy it.

I would loooooove to routinely tell people go to MMPs web page and check out ASL.
I don't routinely even bother mentioning their page at all. It's counter productive.
I have actually wondered if they should just lie and not tell anyone that stock is currently out of print.
Maybe tell a white lie and say they have access to all the modules, and if we mistakenly order one of the important key modules, just tell the person their order is temporarily on hold.

Actually, from now on I am refusing to employ the term "Core".
It has lost meaning relevance and purpose.

From now on, I will be using the term "Key" modules. I am not saying you have top do so as well, but henceforce I am myself using it.

Key modules are now to be known by me as

Rules manual
Russians
Germans
Americans
British
Japanese

edit to add, yes I am aware, the war started over Poland, Poland is a minor. Yes I am aware the war involved the French and Italians in a big seeming way. Frankly I don't care. Look at the hobby out there, unless you are doing grand strategy, People see the Russians Germans Americans British and Japanese as the be all and end all of the war. Everyone else is just not as important.

Notice I am also refusing to employ the specific names of the modules as they too are misleading.

Thus, if I say Russians, I clearly mean some variant of Beyond Valour, but the fan can just assume I am not planning on saying it has t be v3.

And while the Hungarians sure were part of the war, sorry to you Hungarians out there, but the your committment was hardly a key portion of the conflict.
 
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Chris Milne

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Buggy before the horse?

Or fulfilling a promise made to their customers several years ago?

I'm curious, is getting a bank loan in the US/Canada much easier than over here? Our banks tend to want their loans, especially to such a small business, to be secured on something. What has MMP got to offer as security?

When you go into business with your millionaire friend, as you seem so keen to do, and you make a success of your gaming business, I'll take your ideas about this industry more seriously.

I do agree with you on the website, though. It's not what I think it could be.
 

Roy

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I think the AoO module will do well, then will peter out and fade to nothing.

I know a lot of people disagree with my minority views on boards, (stop making new ones, please!). My view on counters is the same.

Sure, ASL is really cool with the vehicles and guns we can play around with. Doomed Batallions came out with some kick-ass counters for some rare vehicles.

But let's look at DB for a minute. Unless you played "Good Night Sweet Prince" how many times have you busted out that Nimbus counter? Even if you played it once, how many times have you busted out that Nimbus counter? How many scenarios have been released from MMP, and all the TPP since the DB release that support it? Those scenarios featuring TKS tankettes and Nimbus motorcycles are all over the place, and more are always on the way!

Don't get me wrong, there are some great scenarios in DB, some I have played more than once, but after it's release, there was no support from anywhere, not even the people who produced it. Now I've got a plano full of rare Allied Minor vehicles that just gathers dust.

AoO will be the same. We'll all buy them up, play the cool looking scenarios, and put the cool looking rare vehicles and guns in a cool looking labled plano and put them on a cool looking shelf never to be taken out again. And MMP won't have to worry about another print run, because people won't be buying it anymore.

At least with the Germans, Americans, Russians, and British, new scens come down the pipe on a fairly regular basis that use the counters. :(
 

Aries

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Life would be good indeed if I could collect on every promise ever made to me hehe.

Count me in the short list of people that think 50 maps is well enough maps.

And yes, I sure have a lot of counters unlikely to ever get severe wear and tear effects.
 

Aries

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If MMP wants some quick cash, they should make some easy sell items.

How about re releasing Up Front without screwing up the manual that worked fine.

How about re releasing Panzer Blitz and Panzer leader with zero modifcation, as they became famous long before MMP ever got the priviledge of being the source, so I don't think they need to be re invented, they worled fine when they became famous eh.

Why doesn't MMP just re release some games to the marketplace with minimal return on profit but also minimal screwing around with the original article too.

Why doesn't MMP just learn you can always get by without having to re invent the whell some times too.
 

Pfc TAZ

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Aries said:
If MMP wants some quick cash, they should make some easy sell items.

How about re releasing Up Front without screwing up the manual that worked fine.
I agree with this one. I have seen a big demand for Up Front and it's price on ebay is OUTRAGEOUS! It would be easy to get back on the market with minimal fuss.

Why not reprint it when card games are the rage right now?
 

Aries

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Wish I knew the answer :)

Last I had heard, the game went with all cards, and no counters, and they had decided, enigmatically so, that the Programmed Instruction method was not required.

Now turfing the cards is ok I guess.

But re writing the manual? total waste of energy.

And yes, I have seen what the 3 parts of the Up Front game are worth to some.

So final analysis, MMP has control over some good items, and for reasons maybe known to them, they have elected to not market it unmodified.

Oh I forgot, you can't reprint anything until you have lots of cash first.

That line though gets a bit old after a while.

Sort of like a child saying "I dunno" to a parent. Eventually you just get tired of hearing it :)
 

Gunner Scott

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AoO? The Module of Oblivion. I dont think AoO is worth it now, since MMP changed their minds and cut the German/ Russian Rare vehicles from AoO. Worse, how many people have they told that AoO which originally included said vehicles wont now?

But I am sure PVT Mosher will have the answer since that boy is bucking for Kieth's job as MMP mouthpiece.

Scott
 

Matt Romey

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AoO is important because it contains maps I don't have and the Axis Minor counters. Some may not care about the counters, but I do. There have been a number of scenarios that I designed or developed or playtested where I would love to have included an Axis Minor vehicle or Gun. And you can't compare it to DB, cuz the Axis Minors fought for a much longer period - there are lots of battles where you need those counters.

I'm looking forward to it, but I've stopped holding my breath.
 

Roy

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Hey Matt,

I ain't telling anyone to stop, now that we're almost there with AoO. Since the boards have been released, sure I want them. Suggesting that someone scrap something after a decade of work would be silly. It's just not that big a thing to me.

And I do think you can compare it to DB. I can definitely be proved wrong later, and I hope I am, but I still believe it will be released and then shoved aside.

I love playing with the TKS tankettes and the other Allied Minor armor, but even after the last few years after DB, my options to do so are still very limited. Sure, the suggestion could be made that I could contribute by designing Allied Minor scenarios, but I've made forays down that (design) road and I'm not very good at it.

Tell you what though, after AoO comes out, if you've got some Axis Minor designs you need help playtesting, contact me, I'll help out. :)
 

paulkenny

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Roy,

there are a number of TPP that feature vehicles from DB, hint hint hint.

Paul "Fanatic Enterprises Mouthpiece" Kenny
 

paulkenny

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The system wont be complete until all of the vehicles and ordinance are represented, thus the rare vehicle module I am working on will truly FINISH THE SYSTEM!!

:nuts:
 

Roy

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paulkenny said:
Roy,

there are a number of TPP that feature vehicles from DB, hint hint hint.

Paul "Fanatic Enterprises Mouthpiece" Kenny
('sigh') I should have expected PK to be around here somewhere. :rolleyes: :)
 

Pitman

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Armies of Oblivion is, in my opinion, the most important ASL product to get out the door right now. As big a fan as I am of the Starter Kit, and as big a booster as I am for reprinting ASLRBv2/BV, AOO is owed to the grognards and it is a debt that has been gaining interest for many years.

Is it significant on its own? Yes, it is. Collectively, the Axis Minor Allies were one of the most significant forces in World War II, with millions of combatants who fought during the war.

Will it add to ASL? Yes, it will. I happen to know two people who have modules ready to go, once AOO is released. I myself have been waiting on AOO for a set of scenarios I've been wanting to design for some time involving the Rumanians.

To those people who are not interested in it, I say fine, don't buy it. But don't get in the way, either.
 
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