How do I find out?

Alan Hume

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Well, I have to admit I am stuck here, working on a scenario based upon the
4/5th Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers during Operation Blackcock and the fighting for Lind in the Netherlands
18th January 1945

I have determined that their opposition was the German 176th Infanterie Division (attached to
XII SS Corps, 15th Armee) but here is where I come up against a brick wall, none of my books
(or searching Google) tell me what infantry regiment faced the British, it has to be either the
Grenadier-Regiment 1218, Grenadier-Regiment 1219, Grenadier-Regiment 1220
or Divisions-Füsilier-Bataillon 176

But how do I determine which? I am just going round in circles, I can't figure it out


Anyone got any ideas?
 

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Alan

Maybe the process of elimination can help? Can you find out if the other regiments were fighting another British unit at the time?
I try to "work backwards" when designing, it has helped a number of times.

Also, just my opinion, but you have the German unit down to the Division level, which should be good enough for the scenario :)

Good luck on this!!

Regards
Joe
 

Alan Hume

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Alan

Maybe the process of elimination can help? Can you find out if the other regiments were fighting another British unit at the time?
I try to "work backwards" when designing, it has helped a number of times.

Also, just my opinion, but you have the German unit down to the Division level, which should be good enough for the scenario :)

Good luck on this!!

Regards
Joe
Thanks, yes, that has certainly helped me in the past. I have been scouring my books in the hope I would find a mention of the other regiments anywhere but so far I have drawn a blank. I will keep trying though, it may well be though that I can't nail this one down and I will just have to run with the division, glad you think that is acceptable, that takes a real weight off my mind.

thank you very much for getting back to me here, much appreciated :)
 

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Alan
Since the 176. was raised in October 1944 and finally destroyed in April 1945, i suppose there will be no detailed unit history available, if any.
I highly doubt that the division had a high battle value, as most of the division raised by that time.
Btw, where is Lind located in the Netherlands?
Anyway,good luck on your design...
 

Alan Hume

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Alan
Since the 176. was raised in October 1944 and finally destroyed in April 1945, i suppose there will be no detailed unit history available, if any.
I highly doubt that the division had a high battle value, as most of the division raised by that time.
Btw, where is Lind located in the Netherlands?
Anyway,good luck on your design...
Hi Michael,
Thanks for taking the time to pitch in, much appreciated.

Yes, you're right, I guess there's not much chance of an actual unit history having been produced given that they only
existed for such a short amount of time. That's a pity but I guess it means I don't have to find the money to buy one, I guess there's always a silver lining:D

I've marked them down as second line 4-4-7's but perhaps that is being overgenerous as

"It had a strength of about 7,000 men, most of whom were in a poor shape. The division was nicknamed the "kranken division" (sick division), because it was mostly made up of men deemed unfit for military service, such as the physically handicapped and men with severe allergies. One battalion consisted of men with serious hearing maladies, two comprised Luftwaffe personnel, (but with ample infantry training), while many others were convalescents and semi-invalids."

Lind is near the border with Germany, between Roermond and Aachen. I don't think it is too far from Geilenkirchen.

It's just a small scenario, one company of the Fusiliers attacking a smaller enemy but I like to think it is coming together and hope it will be worthwhile when it is finished (I'm hoping Pete will publish it in View From The Trenches). Once we get through all this terrible virus I can get some playtesting done with John Martin and co. Heh, for some reason I don't really like working on 'big' scenarios, I find it much easier to work on something smaller, guess that's just me.

Thanks again Michael and stay safe
 

Michael Dorosh

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Did you look on Lexicon der Wehrmacht? That is the go to.

Ok, so I just did, and not much help. You have two choices:

a) use "Elements of Infanterie Division 176" on the scenario card
b) do a deep dive into either Bundesarchiv or the British archives - specifically brigade and division level headquarters, where prisoner interrogations and intelligence reports might find you some accurate information. Unit war diaries might have that kind of detail - if the war diarist was good, and had access to that info, and thought it worth mentioning.

I've done some research of my own on Blackcock and had the same problem you did.
 

Alan Hume

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Did you look on Lexicon der Wehrmacht? That is the go to.

Ok, so I just did, and not much help. You have two choices:

a) use "Elements of Infanterie Division 176" on the scenario card
b) do a deep dive into either Bundesarchiv or the British archives - specifically brigade and division level headquarters, where prisoner interrogations and intelligence reports might find you some accurate information. Unit war diaries might have that kind of detail - if the war diarist was good, and had access to that info, and thought it worth mentioning.

I've done some research of my own on Blackcock and had the same problem you did.
Hi Michael,
Thank you for the advice, much appreciated👍

Yeah, the Royal Scots Fusiliers is a war diary I don't actually have, I don't think it is online anywhere for free and I can't afford to pay for a copy at the moment (Drew on the WW2TALK site provides a fantastic service going down the archives in Kew and copying what you need for a small fee). Drew's prices are very reasonable (far cheaper than asking Kew themselves for a copy and much cheaper than me actually having to go down to London myself) but I'm just broke at the minute so I can't get the diary right now, maybe later

If the worse comes to the worse I will just roll with "Elements of Infanterie Division 176" as you say, it won't be ideal but I think other people have had to do that in the past as well. I have been reading the official unit history for the Royal Scots Fusiliers as well as books on Blackcock but, as you say, nothing seems to spell it out here, often you get lucky with books giving up the desired information but not in this case, ah well.

Stay safe
 

Michael Dorosh

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It's all good, Alan - I'm currently working part time in a military archive, doing research, and due to COVID of course the place is shut down.... :-(

Gotta wait for someone to do a Battleground Europe title on Geilenkirchen, I think. :)
 

Alan Hume

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It's all good, Alan - I'm currently working part time in a military archive, doing research, and due to COVID of course the place is shut down.... :-(

Gotta wait for someone to do a Battleground Europe title on Geilenkirchen, I think. :)
Thanks Michael,
I think you're right, fingers crossed someone writes one at some point.

Sounds pretty good your archive work does
 

Alan Hume

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Oh, and if you really wanted to put karma to the test - since apparently information on the unit is so hard to come by online - just pick one of the regiments and insist it is the correct one since no one will be able to prove you wrong. :)
Genius, Pete Phillips (just skyping him as we speak) said Sean Carter will:D

If I was a little bit more confident I really would just do that LOL
 

Michael Dorosh

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Genius, Pete Phillips (just skyping him as we speak) said Sean Carter will:D
Oh yeah, that's where karma comes in. You'll pull your hair out trying to ID it, and if you do go down the slippery slope and just publish it with a made up unit ID, that is when someone will come forward with the info you weren't able to find!
 

Alan Hume

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Oh yeah, that's where karma comes in. You'll pull your hair out trying to ID it, and if you do go down the slippery slope and just publish it with a made up unit ID, that is when someone will come forward with the info you weren't able to find!
Heh,heh,heh, that sounds about right
But seriously, I have to say, for me, determinging the correct German units for a scenario design always seems to be the hardest part.

Most times, after a lot of work, I can figure it out, but not htis time
 
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Lind is near the border with Germany, between Roermond and Aachen. I don't think it is too far from Geilenkirchen.
I never heard of Lind (I do know Lindt but that's a whole different story :) so did a search. Lind is a very small town (15-20 houses) a few miles north-east from Sittard (Netherlands) but just inside Germany. Here is the google maps location: https://goo.gl/maps/dqkaH5wsMXJZC6oA7.
 

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I've marked them down as second line 4-4-7's but perhaps that is being overgenerous as

"It had a strength of about 7,000 men, most of whom were in a poor shape. The division was nicknamed the "kranken division" (sick division), because it was mostly made up of men deemed unfit for military service, such as the physically handicapped and men with severe allergies. One battalion consisted of men with serious hearing maladies, two comprised Luftwaffe personnel, (but with ample infantry training), while many others were convalescents and semi-invalids."
From that description, i would agree 447 would be very generous. Maybe a mix of one third 447s and two thirds 436s would be more adapted for these zombies. Anyway we don't have so many scenarios with German 436s so it would be rather original. Jmo
 

Alan Hume

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I never heard of Lind (I do know Lindt but that's a whole different story :) so did a search. Lind is a very small town (15-20 houses) a few miles north-east from Sittard (Netherlands) but just inside Germany. Here is the google maps location: https://goo.gl/maps/dqkaH5wsMXJZC6oA7.
Thanks, yeah, that will work out well with the board I picked then, (Board P) that's definetely Lind, next door to Stein
 

Alan Hume

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From that description, i would agree 447 would be very generous. Maybe a mix of one third 447s and two thirds 436s would be more adapted for these zombies. Anyway we don't have so many scenarios with German 436s so it would be rather original. Jmo
Could do, could do. It all comes down to the playtesting really and trying to get some kind of game balance, will work it out with Pete Phillips, John and co. Putting some conscripts in there would be sensible right enough but I want the Germans still to have some chance to win the game :D Solunds like the Luftwaffe personnel would be the best troops in there, hmmm, luftwaffe personnel with infantry training would be second line I guess (or is there an argument to make them first line as they are trained now? I think there might be something in that)
 

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Could do, could do. It all comes down to the playtesting really and trying to get some kind of game balance, will work it out with Pete Phillips, John and co. Putting some conscripts in there would be sensible right enough but I want the Germans still to have some chance to win the game :D Solunds like the Luftwaffe personnel would be the best troops in there, hmmm, luftwaffe personnel with infantry training would be second line I guess (or is there an argument to make them first line as they are trained now? I think there might be something in that)
You may also have a split ELR for the German OB.
 
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