How could KGP have achieved more?

The Purist

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True but both panzer divisions had almost no tanks (about 16 in total, iirc). They were more like motorised infantry regiments with some heavy equipment. The panzer divisions gained some major firepower when KG Knaust was sent to Arnhem with the better part of 30 Pz V and and about 6-8 Pz VIb (iirc).

The big question raised by more recent research (than the Ryan book) is what would have happened if Guards Armoured was able to exploit over the Nijmegen bridge on the 19th when there was not much more than motor infantry with a few halftracks and armoured cars south of Arnhem and the British paras still held the north side of the bridge.

It should be noted that 43rd Wessex Infantry was already moving north behind Guards Armoured and (historically) sent troops northwest of Nijmegen to link with the Polish paras on the south bank and assist with the evacuation. The Nijmegen bridgehead was initially consolidated by infantry once the battle wound down and Guards was withdrawn.

I don't see a Rhine bridgehead as being viable in Sep 44 for a strike east and southeast, the allied supply lines were just too stretched and really needed Antwerp to go anywhere in depth. Whatever bridgehead that might have been gained at Arnhem may have led to an earlier liberation of the rest of the The Netherlands and avoided the civilian starvation of the Dutch in the winter of 44/45 but little else.
 
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Actionjick

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One of my all time favorites. They dont make movies like that one anymore. I even remember the scene you are talking about. A little arrogant to think they were after him, haha.
Yes! I LMAO at the hubris displayed in that scene.
Didn't really care for the music though.
 

Actionjick

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True but both panzer divisions had almost no tanks (about 16 in total, iirc). They were more like motorised infantry regiments with some heavy equipment. The panzer divisions gained some major firepower when KG Knaust was sent to Arnhem with the better part of 30 Pz V and and about 6-8 Pz VIb (iirc).

The big question raised by more recent research (than the Ryan book) is what would have happened if Guards Armoured was able to exploit over the Nijmegen bridge on the 19th when there was not much more than motor infantry with a few halftracks and armoured south of Arnhem and the British paras still held the north side of the bridge.

It should be noted that 43rd Wessex Infantry was already moving north behind Guards Armoured and (historically) sent troops northwest of Nijmegen to link with the Polish paras on the south bank and assist with the evacuation. The Nijmegen bridgehead was initially consolidated by infantry once the battle wound down and Guards was withdrawn.

I don't see a Rhine bridgehead as being viable in Sep 44 for a strike east and southeast, the allied supply lines were just too stretched and really needed Antwerp to go anywhere in depth. Whatever bridgehead that might have been gained at Arnhem may have led to an earlier liberation of the rest of the The Netherlands and avoided the civilian starvation of the Dutch in the winter of 44/45 but little else.
Was also thinking about the supply situation. Even though the thread as been hijicked it's quite interesting.
 

The Purist

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It seems as if both MG and the Ardennes Offenive relied too heavily on everything going according to plan.

Peiper might have put more mobile units as his spearhead. Perhaps even glider units to secure vital road junctions and bridges. Just a thought. I have nowhere near the knowledge of these operations as some of the above posters.

IMHO the Germans would have been much better off preserving their units for defense.
Doubt the efficacy of gliders considering the low cloud, fog and (in places) snow.

That said, many German senior commanders said (I paraphrase): "If we make to the Meuse we should fall on our knees and thank God".

The high command did suggest the "Small Solution",.... turning north behind the 1st and 9th Armies and trapping them in NE Belg and SE Holland. Hitler wanted the "full meal deal" and a knock-out blow to the allied coalition by destroying 1st and 9th US, 2nd British and 1st Canadian Army's. o_O
 

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Doubt the efficacy of gliders considering the low cloud, fog and (in places) snow.

That said, many German senior commanders said (I paraphrase): "If we make to the Meuse we should fall on our knees and thank God".

The high command did suggest the "Small Solution",.... turning north behind the 1st and 9th Armies and trapping them in NE Belg and SE Holland. Hitler wanted the "full meal deal" and a knock-out blow to the allied coalition by destroying 1st and 9th US, 2nd British and 1st Canadian Army's. o_O
Big appetite for a vegetarian. ?
 

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Doubt the efficacy of gliders considering the low cloud, fog and (in places) snow.

That said, many German senior commanders said (I paraphrase): "If we make to the Meuse we should fall on our knees and thank God".

The high command did suggest the "Small Solution",.... turning north behind the 1st and 9th Armies and trapping them in NE Belg and SE Holland. Hitler wanted the "full meal deal" and a knock-out blow to the allied coalition by destroying 1st and 9th US, 2nd British and 1st Canadian Army's. o_O
Couldn't have been worse than Crete. Besides I'm sure Airborne types and Marines love those kind of missions!?
 

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The Germans did plan a drop in Hohes Venn behind the Malmedy-Elsenborn Ridge area. All they could muster for trained paras was about a battalion of 300-ish. The drop was a disaster in the low cloud and fog. Von der Heydte, the commander was able to rally a few troopers who could do little more than ambush lone vehicles and 'wire teams'. After a few days the entire enterprise was dead and they were finding dead Germans in the woods throughout the next spring. About 100 made it back to German lines

Von der Heydte himself broke his arm in the drop and eventually turned himself in to the Americans in Monschau.
 

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My understanding is the Market Garden plan was based on only light German forces in the Arnhem area, not a SS panzer division. If the SS panzer division was not in the area, then that would be an interesting what if to discuss.
To claim that the troops who defeated Market Garden in the Arnhem area were "a SS panzer division" is really not true, these were refitting units almost completely without armor except some recon vehicles.

If you read "It never snows in September" it seems obvious that it was a complete underestimation of the German will to fight and its organisational capacity to respond to the attack (by moving in new assets including armor) that doomed it, combined with a bad Allied plan. Monty's arrogance was a key part in that misjudgement.
 

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To claim that the troops who defeated Market Garden in the Arnhem area were "a SS panzer division" is really not true, these were refitting units almost completely without armor except some recon vehicles.

If you read "It never snows in September" it seems obvious that it was a complete underestimation of the German will to fight and its organisational capacity to respond to the attack (by moving in new assets including armor) that doomed it, combined with a bad Allied plan. Monty's arrogance was a key part in that misjudgement.
I love these threads for the reading material you guys mention. Thanks!
 

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The Germans did plan a drop in Hohes Venn behind the Malmedy-Elsenborn Ridge area. All they could muster for trained paras was about a battalion of 300-ish. The drop was a disaster in the low cloud and fog. Von der Heydte, the commander was able to rally a few troopers who could do little more than ambush lone vehicles and 'wire teams'. After a few days the entire enterprise was dead and they were finding dead Germans in the woods throughout the next spring. About 100 made it back to German lines

Von der Heydte himself broke his arm in the drop and eventually turned himself in to the Americans in Monschau.
I remember reading about that part of the operation. Flying at night, during winter. I got the impression that the German paratrooper did not have their heart in it and for good reason. I also sensed this was not the same paratrooper elites that dropped into Crete.
 

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The Germans did plan a drop in Hohes Venn behind the Malmedy-Elsenborn Ridge area. All they could muster for trained paras was about a battalion of 300-ish. The drop was a disaster in the low cloud and fog. Von der Heydte, the commander was able to rally a few troopers who could do little more than ambush lone vehicles and 'wire teams'. After a few days the entire enterprise was dead and they were finding dead Germans in the woods throughout the next spring. About 100 made it back to German lines

Von der Heydte himself broke his arm in the drop and eventually turned himself in to the Americans in Monschau.
My point exactly. Defeated, broken arm, prisoner, what more could he ask for?
 

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To claim that the troops who defeated Market Garden in the Arnhem area were "a SS panzer division" is really not true, these were refitting units almost completely without armor except some recon vehicles.

If you read "It never snows in September" it seems obvious that it was a complete underestimation of the German will to fight and its organisational capacity to respond to the attack (by moving in new assets including armor) that doomed it, combined with a bad Allied plan. Monty's arrogance was a key part in that misjudgement.
If truth be told, the concept was Montgomery's but the development of the actual plan was up to Brereton (US) and Browning (Brit) at 1st Allied Airborne Army. They received the intelligence, set the schedule, assigned assets, accepted the single drop per day despite air force wags knowing they could manage two drops, at least on day one.

And so on.

The ground operation was Dempsey and Horrocks and their plan was actually quite good.

Everyone was confident the Germans were still in retreat mode and that another push would carry the day. The dividing line between pursuit and recovery of/by a defeated enemy is a fine one and the allied commanders were not the first in the war to miss that the shift had occurred.

As with all army group commanders, Montgomery listened to the plan, asked questions about this and that and then asked Brereton and Browning if they were confident their plan would work. They said yes. Montgomery and Eisenhower then blessed the operation.

However, the buck does stop at the top, Montgomery and Eisenhower. Without their blessing the operation would not have proceeded.
 
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Actionjick

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I have a feeling at this point in the war, some German generals We’re doing more heavy drinking than planning.
Like I always say: Any port in a storm. Or cognac, schnapps maybe a Riesling. ?

I really need to restrain myself. Went out of control in the translating the ASLRB thread.
 

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To claim that the troops who defeated Market Garden in the Arnhem area were "a SS panzer division" is really not true, these were refitting units almost completely without armor except some recon vehicles.

If you read "It never snows in September" it seems obvious that it was a complete underestimation of the German will to fight and its organisational capacity to respond to the attack (by moving in new assets including armor) that doomed it, combined with a bad Allied plan. Monty's arrogance was a key part in that misjudgement.
So you are saying the The 9th and the 10th SS panzer divisions in the Arnhem area did not have a major impact in the failure of Market Garden?
 

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American para infantry failing to take Nijmegen bridge as soon as possible after landing??? ;)

(By the time Gavin sent a battalion into the city the evening of the 17th the SS were already in place on both sides of the river,.... :eek:)

Apologies to the OP for thread hijacking. :oops:
My apologies also.☹ Especially as the original premise of the thread was quite interesting. Sorry Hexagoner,

No good thread ever survives contact with the enemy, I mean forum. ?
 

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My apologies also.☹ Especially as the original premise of the thread was quite interesting. Sorry Hexagoner,

No good thread ever survives contact with the enemy, I mean forum. ?
I know it looks like a highjack of the tread, but there is a common denominator of the bridges over the Meuse and the Arnhem bridge. The original question was how Peiper could have done better, and taking a bridge over the Meuse would qualify, so the examples of Arnhem seem to fit as two very ambitious objectives that have some common problems.
 
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