Hollow Legions scenario updates

[John Fedoriw]

FWIW, I actually thought the original version was pretty balanced--it was just that there were a lot of mistakes the Italian player could make, especially in the first playing of the scenario. Once the Italian player groks the situation and the tactics needed, it becomes a lot more competitive. But the changes in the new version give the Italian player a bit more cushion.

I am finally playing the updated version of this as the Italians. I double-timed along the north edge leaving a rearguard behind around the 44BB8 building to cover my back. I have made a beeline to get to the 17B4 area woods before the Ruski turn 3 reinforcements entered but I blundered right into the 2 partisan units in 17B2 and 17D2. I got really lucky and survived a few shots without a scratch (or rather my opponent got really unlucky). However this slowed me down by about 1 or 2 hexes so that I could not adequately place fire on the entry area of the Ruskis. He managed to creep on behind the cover of the 17A7 woods. I have since spent a turn floundering in the woods trying to find a way forward.

We are at the start of Italian turn 5 (See below).

My opponent thinks I chose the correct approach and I agree seeing no other way to do this. I have had good luck with the die rolls as well but I still think I am going to lose. You say "Once the Italian player groks the situation and the tactics needed, it becomes a lot more competitive." I am curious what about the situation have I not grokked? What tactics are needed? What have I missed? I am really curious about how to do this as the Italians.

 

[Stewart]

I just opened my copy of Hollow Legions today. The graphics on the overlays and Boards 25/25e really pop, a nice upgrade there.

I started perusing the Ethiopian scenarios (introduced with a minimum of new rules - praise the ASL Gods!) and have a question about scenario 257 Circle the Wagons. Can the Italian force which starts on map exit the map via the South Edge to avoid surrendering CVPs?

The reason I inquire about the south edge, is that is where the Italian reinforcements enter the board.

Stuff like this makes the balance look bad in certain games.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Stuff like this makes the balance look bad in certain games.

What stuff do you mean?

 

[Perry]

Were any of the old Italian scenarios updated for the rerelease of Hollow Legions? Is there a list somewhere of what changes were made? I looked on the MMP website but found nothing there.

Thanks

See Journal 13 for the list of update changes.

 

[fanatic+1]

Gotta disagree with you on that one, if a scenario is very kool and interesting, I will try it again.

I am about to replay J162 African Brothers as the Italians. Good replay value with the victory conditions giving the Italians multiple ways to proceed.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Excellent scenario. On my replay list too.

I am about to replay J162 African Brothers as the Italians. Good replay value with the victory conditions giving the Italians multiple ways to proceed.

 

[ecz]

I believe that if a scenario is grokked initially by most players and can be played as it should be without difficult, well I think that dice become too important and the skill battle stays in the background. If this is right or wrong depends on players, but personally I do prefer scenarios where the best or more experienced player tends to win because he understands first and better what the VCs require, and not because dice are friend and everything is obvious.

 

[Pitman]

I am finally playing the updated version of this as the Italians. I double-timed along the north edge leaving a rearguard behind around the 44BB8 building to cover my back. I have made a beeline to get to the 17B4 area woods before the Ruski turn 3 reinforcements entered but I blundered right into the 2 partisan units in 17B2 and 17D2. I got really lucky and survived a few shots without a scratch (or rather my opponent got really unlucky). However this slowed me down by about 1 or 2 hexes so that I could not adequately place fire on the entry area of the Ruskis. He managed to creep on behind the cover of the 17A7 woods. I have since spent a turn floundering in the woods trying to find a way forward.

We are at the start of Italian turn 5 (See below).

My opponent thinks I chose the correct approach and I agree seeing no other way to do this. I have had good luck with the die rolls as well but I still think I am going to lose. You say "Once the Italian player groks the situation and the tactics needed, it becomes a lot more competitive." I am curious what about the situation have I not grokked? What tactics are needed? What have I missed? I am really curious about how to do this as the Italians.

I can't speak to your particular playing of the scenario, not having observed it, but the Italian player must slough off units to delay and hinder the Soviets, must not get too close to a side board edge so that the Soviets will have to spend time coming to him, must avoid needlessly telegraphing the eventual exit area, and must of course protect the 10-3 leader at all costs. There are also likely going to be opportunities to exit a unit here and there by itself that the Soviet player cannot afford to go after for risk of letting a more important force slip through his grasp.

 

[Vic Provost]

Gotta disagree with you on that one, if a scenario is very kool and interesting, I will try it again.

Me too, if the scenario proves itself to me there is always a chance I'll play it again.

 

[John Fedoriw]

I can't speak to your particular playing of the scenario, not having observed it, but the Italian player must slough off units to delay and hinder the Soviets, must not get too close to a side board edge so that the Soviets will have to spend time coming to him, must avoid needlessly telegraphing the eventual exit area, and must of course protect the 10-3 leader at all costs. There are also likely going to be opportunities to exit a unit here and there by itself that the Soviet player cannot afford to go after for risk of letting a more important force slip through his grasp.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for answering. I was hoping to get your point of view on this.

I did slough off units to delay and hinder the Soviets and that I think worked well. However contrary to your advice I did get close to a board edge (feeling that that was really the most covered path with the least hazards). My eventual exit area was probably pretty obvious as well. Initially, I was thinking of running through the orchards near 17G5 and exiting around 17K10.

So I failed on 2 of your points. To be honest when I first looked at the scenario my original plan was a run up the middle of the board thinking the 17 R1/R2, 17 O1-O4 hedges would provide some cover later. However I didn't want to have to have enemies attacking me from 2 or 3 sides instead of just 1 or 2 before I got there. Also, I figured that the reinforcements being cavalry would have no difficulties "heading me off at the pass", so to speak, if I went up the middle. I may have been wrong on this last point - I may have been able to get where I wanted before them if I had chosen the middle path.

Considering the difficulties of moving in deep snow and the scenario length I don't really see how the Italians can avoid telegraphing the eventual exit area. They don't really have a lot of time to do anything other than run directly towards it.

Anyway in my game now with the units closing in around 17N4 I am hoping to punch through the opposition around 17C9. I think it looks bleak.

This is a really interesting scenario in my opinion (as are most of the other scenarios in the AP - BTW kudos to you for that I really liked Few Returned) but it seems hard for the Italians regardless of which approach they take.

 

[fanatic+1]

Hi Mark,

but it seems hard for the Italians regardless of which approach they take.

I feel that way every time I play the Italians.

 

[Stewart]

dont be cheap asses, buy the damn module lol

Some might accuse you of using American Standards of affordability.
Just sayin'
I'm not one of them...I benefit by being in the US for shipping costs.

 

[wrongway149]

I'm thinking however if a scenario appeals to one initially it's one that comes out fairly close. If one needs to replay a scenario several times to be able to grok the designer's intricacies of how to win with a particular side I don't believe it'll get a lot of replays as first impressions may lead to the conclusion that it is quite unbalanced one way or another. Face it, if you have a feeling you don't have quite a decent chance at coming out on top, even though you may eventually lose, it leaves one with a little bit of a bitter taste in one's mouth. Now I know some people play a scenario to figure out how is the best "must play it this way" parameters put in by a designer in order to win but I don't feel most players are into that type of play for our board game (computer games---meh). YMMV.

But if you grok what you should be doing/should have done half way through the first playing and want to try again-- you will have achieved synchronicity with the designer's intent and your second playing will be a mind- meld with his.

 

[wrongway149]

Me too, if the scenario proves itself to me there is always a chance I'll play it again.

If I played it once (or twice -- but not likely thrice) and I liked it, I probably won't veto it from the 'pick list' for the tourney round.

 

[Eagle4ty]

But if you grok what you should be doing/should have done half way through the first playing and want to try again-- you will have achieved synchronicity with the designer's intent and your second playing will be a mind- meld with his.

Well, if someone mind-melds with me it's a scary place.

 

[Tuomo]

But if you grok what you should be doing/should have done half way through the first playing and want to try again-- you will have achieved synchronicity with the designer's intent and your second playing will be a mind- meld with his.

Um, Pete? That Spidey-Sense feeling that you get sometimes isn't somebody grokking your scenario- it's somebody cursing your name, usually because they couldn't pass a Morale Check.

Designers. Sheesh!

 

[Old Noob]

But where would we be, ASL-wise without the designers of scenarios?

 

[wrongway149]

Um, Pete? That Spidey-Sense feeling that you get sometimes isn't somebody grokking your scenario- it's somebody cursing your name, usually because they couldn't pass a Morale Check.

Designers. Sheesh!

It' s either the scenario designer or the damned dice. NEVER the player!!!

 

[Tuomo]

But where would we be, ASL-wise without the designers of scenarios?

Careful, Brother - the International Conglomerate of Scenario Designers (ICSD) is watching