Hollow Legions reprint, Will you play the desert?

[Evan Sherry]

A sheet of brand new desert overlays by Charlie Kibler is what would really make this Hollow Legions reprint really worth something. I pre-ordered 3 copies as I now always do with my new MMP product releases. I was actually disappointed in Croix de Guerre not only because it did not include the original overlays but because it featured nothing new in the geomorphic realm. I would gladly pay $20 more for a simple sheet of new desert overlays that would breathe more life into desert scenarios of the future than anything else they are likely to do. It would be affordable for them and also incentivize the purchase for old players like that cheap-skate Swann with the numbers rubbed off their Dorito-stained Italian counters. My gosh, $129.00 every 25 years. What an entertainment value. Let loose of some daggone coins!

 

[Yuri0352]

I have been eagerly awaiting the reprint of Hollow Legions because I like the desert. In fact, I prefer playing desert to PTO scenarios. However, I am not sure that many ASLers enjoy the desert as much as I do. Over the years I have made many desert scenarios, but few of them have been printed due to what I saw as a lack of interest on the part of the players.
So....the question is, after all the yammering about the Italians being out of print and the desert boards and overlays being unavailable, once you have them at the end of 2021, will you play the Italians and the desert?

I've never really stopped playing DTO, as it is far and away my favorite theater of ASL (Korea and PTO being a close second!). I'm very pleased to have this opportunity to 'upgrade' my well worn Italian counters, as well as playing on the 'new' DTO geo-boards.
I realize that DTO is not everyone's cup of tea, however I've been hooked ever since I bought AH's Tobruk over 40 years ago. If I were to make a suggestion, I would most like to see more scenarios (or an HASL) based upon the 1942 Gazala battles and 1st and 2nd Alamein.

 

[TopT]

A sheet of brand new desert overlays by Charlie Kibler is what would really make this Hollow Legions reprint really worth something. I pre-ordered 3 copies as I now always do with my new MMP product releases. I was actually disappointed in Croix de Guerre not only because it did not include the original overlays but because it featured nothing new in the geomorphic realm. I would gladly pay $20 more for a simple sheet of new desert overlays that would breathe more life into desert scenarios of the future than anything else they are likely to do. It would be affordable for them and also incentivize the purchase for old players like that cheap-skate Swann with the numbers rubbed off their Dorito-stained Italian counters. My gosh, $129.00 every 25 years. What an entertainment value. Let loose of some daggone coins!

I always thought that CH had a decent concept to playing DTO with a basic desert terrain maps augmented with many, varied sets of overlays as the best approach.

The way you are describing is somewhat similar. I have to admit to never playing a desert scenario but it is on my list. i just need to find someone to walk me through it. A buddy and I have started playing a chronological list of all of the official scenarios, so desert will be popping up and I do not want to skip it.

 

[Nineteen Kilo]

I always thought that CH had a decent concept to playing DTO with a basic desert terrain maps augmented with many, varied sets of overlays as the best approach.

The way you are describing is somewhat similar. I have to admit to never playing a desert scenario but it is on my list. i just need to find someone to walk me through it. A buddy and I have started playing a chronological list of all of the official scenarios, so desert will be popping up and I do not want to skip it.

I found the DTO rules to be very straight forward, but they are their own thing entirely; I can't go back and forth between DTO and ETO. I need to play at least 6+ straight DTO scenarios before it starts to become second nature like the ETO.

I haven't played DTO in probably 7 years, so I'd have to pretty much have to start from scratch again.

 

[Actionjick]

I found the DTO rules to be very straight forward, but they are their own thing entirely; I can't go back and forth between DTO and ETO. I need to play at least 6+ straight DTO scenarios before it starts to become second nature like the ETO.

I haven't played DTO in probably 7 years, so I'd have to pretty much have to start from scratch again.

Makes a lot of sense to play several of the same theater or genre scenarios in a row to reinforce what you have remembered or just learned.

 

[TopT]

I found the DTO rules to be very straight forward, but they are their own thing entirely; I can't go back and forth between DTO and ETO. I need to play at least 6+ straight DTO scenarios before it starts to become second nature like the ETO.

I haven't played DTO in probably 7 years, so I'd have to pretty much have to start from scratch again.

That is pretty much the reason I have dawdled on playing DTO.

I played a series of night scenarios and had them down pretty good but then I took a break from them. I recently started a night scenario and have to be reminded of mistakes I am making in regards to night rules. Bocage is the same.

Before I start on DTO I want to play some caves. I have to get ready for Peliliu!

 

[Old Noob]

Annual/Journal/General scenarios only, no CH ones. That's what is in the module, aside from WOA/HL and SoN scenarios.

 

[Nineteen Kilo]

That is pretty much the reason I have dawdled on playing DTO.

I played a series of night scenarios and had them down pretty good but then I took a break from them. I recently started a night scenario and have to be reminded of mistakes I am making in regards to night rules. Bocage is the same.

Before I start on DTO I want to play some caves. I have to get ready for Peliliu!

Yep, Night, Bocage, DTO, PTO, I like to play a bunch of them back to back or not at all.

 

[The Purist]

....I realize that DTO is not everyone's cup of tea, however I've been hooked ever since I bought AH's Tobruk over 40 years ago. If I were to make a suggestion, I would most like to see more scenarios (or an HASL) based upon the 1942 Gazala battles and 1st and 2nd Alamein.

Tobruk was excellent for the realistic penetration mathematics (mostly) but the infantry rules were a bit too complicated for that scale.

While I love the desert a standard CG would be very tricky because of the nature of the terrain and battles fought. Major mobile actions would be almost impossible to replicate without some sort of operational game as we have seen with AFs 'Brevity Assault' (which works quite well and is scalable). Another good option could be to use a series of linked scenarios similar to "A Line in the Sand" found in Journal 5 but with more options and 5-6 scenarios in length covering a few days to a week of battle in one campaign or another.

For battles around the truly fortified positions such as the Tobruk perimeter in 41, Bir Hakeim (42) or the150th Bde Box (42) the maps would look very much like J91 "The Sooner the Better". There would be pillboxes and supporting trenches, emplaced guns behind wire, mine belts and AT Ditches (Tobruk) lots of OBA and armoured reserves. It would be an impressive sight but the current rout/rally rules could be a problem (might need a CG rule where Trenches and PBs would be akin to woods and buildings for rout/rally).

Definite food for thought for the creative.

 

[von Marwitz]

I always thought that CH had a decent concept to playing DTO with a basic desert terrain maps augmented with many, varied sets of overlays as the best approach.

The way you are describing is somewhat similar. I have to admit to never playing a desert scenario but it is on my list. i just need to find someone to walk me through it. A buddy and I have started playing a chronological list of all of the official scenarios, so desert will be popping up and I do not want to skip it.

At the time when all the CH desert stuff came out, were there already SK-style boards? I can't remember.

If it was still the 'mounted board age', then CH's overlay approach was doubtlessly valid. Nowadays, I believe that a wider variety of SK-style desert boards that can be modified with few and small overlays (if need be) is the better approach. In VASL, many overlays are much less an issue. Here, the problem with CH's scenarios might well have been the lack of playtesting. Having thoroughly playtested designs might make desert stuff more attractive, especially for VASL, even if numerous overlays are involved.

The reasons for this: SK-boards abound. Apparently they are not that expensive to produce. This was different for mounted boards. In general, people are reluctant to play face-to-face scenarios that include more than a few overlays. These might be 'caught' if you give them a wider variety of full desert boards maybe. Then, new desert boards might also be usable to represent Steppe terrain which could see use for some scenarios in Russia.

von Marwitz

 

[Nicho11]

I am looking forward to playing some DTO once I complete The Governor.

 

[Nicho11]

I also have Hollow Legions on pre-order.

 

[Philippe D.]

DTO is one of a small number of rules subsets that I have never played - the others all having to do with water (landings and seaborne assaults) or air (paratroops and gliders). I'd like to get into it at some point, but I've never had the opportunity, and my regular opponents never seem to suggest playing them.

Too many rules, too little time.

 

[Actionjick]

DTO is one of a small number of rules subsets that I have never played - the others all having to do with water (landings and seaborne assaults) or air (paratroops and gliders). I'd like to get into it at some point, but I've never had the opportunity, and my regular opponents never seem to suggest playing them.

Too many rules, too little time.

As has been mentioned in other posts when venturing into some of these genres it's best to commit to playing it exclusively for a while. Repetition helps retention IMO.

You might want to start with paratroopers and gliders. Nowhere near as complex as some of the others you mentioned.

Night is very interesting and VASL certainly appears to help with the visualization.

 

[Ganjulama]

Then, new desert boards might also be usable to represent Steppe terrain which could see use for some scenarios in Russia.

von Marwitz

Steppe is an under represented terrain type in ASL especially given the number of scenarios that take place in Ukraine. There is nothing that prevents invocation of Steppe on regular boards by SSR. It’s just almost never done.

 

[Actionjick]

At the time when all the CH desert stuff came out, were there already SK-style boards? I can't remember.

If it was still the 'mounted board age', then CH's overlay approach was doubtlessly valid. Nowadays, I believe that a wider variety of SK-style desert boards that can be modified with few and small overlays (if need be) is the better approach. In VASL, many overlays are much less an issue. Here, the problem with CH's scenarios might well have been the lack of playtesting. Having thoroughly playtested designs might make desert stuff more attractive, especially for VASL, even if numerous overlays are involved.

The reasons for this: SK-boards abound. Apparently they are not that expensive to produce. This was different for mounted boards. In general, people are reluctant to play face-to-face scenarios that include more than a few overlays. These might be 'caught' if you give them a wider variety of full desert boards maybe. Then, new desert boards might also be usable to represent Steppe terrain which could see use for some scenarios in Russia.

von Marwitz

Your point about overlays is quite valid, they can be a big PITA. The issue is that DTO was designed around relatively homogeneous boards utilizing lots of overlays to depict the desired terrain. It seemed like a good idea at the time but hasn't worked out well over the years. New boards with fewer required overlays is probably the way to go in the future.

 

[Yuri0352]

Tobruk was excellent for the realistic penetration mathematics (mostly) but the infantry rules were a bit too complicated for that scale.

Another good option could be to use a series of linked scenarios similar to "A Line in the Sand" found in Journal 5 but with more options and 5-6 scenarios in length covering a few days to a week of battle in one campaign or another.

For battles around the truly fortified positions such as the Tobruk perimeter in 41, Bir Hakeim (42) or the150th Bde Box (42) the maps would look very much like J91 "The Sooner the Better". There would be pillboxes and supporting trenches, emplaced guns behind wire, mine belts and AT Ditches (Tobruk) lots of OBA and armoured reserves. It would be an impressive sight but the current rout/rally rules could be a problem (might need a CG rule where Trenches and PBs would be akin to woods and buildings for rout/rally).

Definite food for thought for the creative.

Exactly what I had in mind.

 

[The Purist]

Two or three "Squad Bleeder" type scenarios could also work. Players might choose from a selection of overlays to change up the map in a similar manner found in board selections for the other SB scenarios would also spice things up a bit.

 

[atago44]

At the time when all the CH desert stuff came out, were there already SK-style boards? I can't remember.

If it was still the 'mounted board age', then CH's overlay approach was doubtlessly valid. Nowadays, I believe that a wider variety of SK-style desert boards that can be modified with few and small overlays (if need be) is the better approach. In VASL, many overlays are much less an issue. Here, the problem with CH's scenarios might well have been the lack of playtesting. Having thoroughly playtested designs might make desert stuff more attractive, especially for VASL, even if numerous overlays are involved.

The reasons for this: SK-boards abound. Apparently they are not that expensive to produce. This was different for mounted boards. In general, people are reluctant to play face-to-face scenarios that include more than a few overlays. These might be 'caught' if you give them a wider variety of full desert boards maybe. Then, new desert boards might also be usable to represent Steppe terrain which could see use for some scenarios in Russia.

von Marwitz

Ruseweit Ridge (the one with the crayon map) came out years before the SK maps--some time in the late '90s, IIRC. It depicts part of the battle of El Alemin and features a short hill.

 

[von Marwitz]

Ruseweit Ridge (the one with the crayon map) came out years before the SK maps--some time in the late '90s, IIRC. It depicts part of the battle of El Alemin and features a short hill.

I was thinking of the time when about 10 or 12 desert products by CH came out in short order. The artwork for the maps wasn't crayon. I think it was one 'main thing' and then many scenario packs.

von Marwitz