Hollow Legions III -

[Mr Incredible]

Was there any thinking in flogging off SotN and Dinant as separate for those of use that already have HL and CdG?

I can't recall.

 

[JacksonsGhost]

Was there any thinking in flogging off SotN and Dinant as separate for those of use that already have HL and CdG?

I can't recall.

Why would MMP sell separately when they can bundle them and up-sell everyone along the way. A truly brilliant marketing strategy until people get sick of it and don't buy MMP products at all because of it!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

You know, that's a great idea regarding the escarpment overlay, Paul.

Have already been considered - http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/hollow-legions-reprint-board-25-overlay-e1-combo.128362/#post-1840415
Of course, it is still a good idea.

 

[Paul M. Weir]

You know, that's a great idea regarding the escarpment overlay, Paul.

When AH was gurgling down the tubes I panic bought extra duplicate ASL modules "Waaah no more ASL, the world is ending!" and have never regretted that. Amongst those I bought a few WoA which meant I had extra board 25s and DTO overlays. I permanently glued an escarpment overlay to one of my spare 25s.

I thought the 10x and 17x, while nicely done, were a bit "Meh!". The elimination of 10's "roundabout" was nice but the changes to both were only 10x8 of 32x10 hexes or 25%, so to me not really justifying a full board. Board 25 + escarpment is about 70% (I count 226 hex equivalents on the escarpment overlay), so a bespoke board would be a much, much better candidate. Years ago there was some muttering about including a 25+e board in the Overlay Pack, though that project appears to have gone into slumber.

 

[kynken]

I'd really like to see a new combined French and Italian module. Both are small nationalities.

and folded like paper envelops when in battle.

 

[Yuri0352]

and folded like paper envelops when in battle.

Bir Hacheim?
Operation Diadem?

 

[Sparafucil3]

and folded like paper envelops when in battle.

The French soldier fought like hell. French operational and strategic leadership left much to be desired. -- jim

 

[witchbottles]

You know, they should call it "Hollow Legions 3". Just to stick it to the Romans.

JR

well done.....

 

[Perry]

We can do a poll on preference:
HL Trois vs HL Drei.

 

[jrv]

Hollow Legions 三

JR

 

[fenyan]

Three big roman numerals on the cover dressed up like Corinthian columns.

 

[witchbottles]

if anyone counts - this thread alone appears to have re-homed at least three copies of HL and one of CdG by my count - not bad for a thread on HLv3.


esp as I am very biased - italians are my fav ASL nationality.

(and they make decent opponents, as well...)

KRL, Jon H

 

[kynken]

if anyone counts - this thread alone appears to have re-homed at least three copies of HL and one of CdG by my count - not bad for a thread on HLv3.


esp as I am very biased - italians are my fav ASL nationality.

(and they make decent opponents, as well...)

KRL, Jon H

Nothing finer then an m13/40 at your back.

 

[witchbottles]

Nothing finer then an m13/40 at your back.

in ASL terms they are powerhouses. lots of MGs just as reliable as any american stuff and a good anti-armor punch in a well-rounded armored box with decent MPs. ASL doesn't model riveted and poorly welded armor plates well in the TK tables D)

 

[Paul M. Weir]

in ASL terms they are powerhouses. lots of MGs just as reliable as any american stuff and a good anti-armor punch in a well-rounded armored box with decent MPs. ASL doesn't model riveted and poorly welded armor plates well in the TK tables D)

Maybe not in the TK tables but in the AF.

The M13/40 and M14/41 both had slightly sloped 40mm frontal armour which should rate 4, yet only get 3. Something similar was on the designer's mind when specifying the Pz 38(t)s. The first models had 25mm frontal and 15mm side armour. Czech armour was good quality in terms of consistency and working but regarded as a bit too hard and brittle. However a slightly boosted front AF of 3 is not too outrageous and a side AF of 1 seems right. However when frontal armour went to 50mm the front AF only went to 4, whilst the 50mm frontal armour of a Pz III H/J gets a 6.

Now 30mm armour was regarded as proof against up to .50"/12.7mm/13.2mm rounds at any range and against most 20mm at battle ranges, though 40mm was considered to be the ideal against 20mm at point blank. So upping the 25mm on a Pz 38(t) A to 3 means it can usually defeat MG/HMG/20mm in ASL. By not jumping up the Pz 38(t) E 50mm to 6 means that they were more vulnerable to 37mm+ rounds than a Pz III H/J. That corresponds to reports of Czech armour breaking off in large chunks when penetrated.

The British did some tests on British and Italian armour in the DTO. They used damaged vehicles and put sandbags where the crew sat. The fired a round (2lbr, I think) into both. The British tank had a hole and the shot did some damage to fittings and the sandbags while rattling around. The Italian tank had a much bigger hole and the resultant armour fragments shredded the sandbags. It was not the shot that did the most damage, it was the armour fragments from the brittle Italian armour that did the worst.

So, like for cast armour, some consideration seems to have been given to riveted or overly brittle armour by tweaking the AFs but not the TKs.

 

[witchbottles]

Maybe not in the TK tables but in the AF.

The M13/40 and M14/41 both had slightly sloped 40mm frontal armour which should rate 4, yet only get 3. Something similar was on the designer's mind when specifying the Pz 38(t)s. The first models had 25mm frontal and 15mm side armour. Czech armour was good quality in terms of consistency and working but regarded as a bit too hard and brittle. However a slightly boosted front AF of 3 is not too outrageous and a side AF of 1 seems right. However when frontal armour went to 50mm the front AF only went to 4, whilst the 50mm frontal armour of a Pz III H/J gets a 6.

Now 30mm armour was regarded as proof against up to .50"/12.7mm/13.2mm rounds at any range and against most 20mm at battle ranges, though 40mm was considered to be the ideal against 20mm at point blank. So upping the 25mm on a Pz 38(t) A to 3 means it can usually defeat MG/HMG/20mm in ASL. By not jumping up the Pz 38(t) E 50mm to 6 means that they were more vulnerable to 37mm+ rounds than a Pz III H/J. That corresponds to reports of Czech armour breaking off in large chunks when penetrated.

The British did some tests on British and Italian armour in the DTO. They used damaged vehicles and put sandbags where the crew sat. The fired a round (2lbr, I think) into both. The British tank had a hole and the shot did some damage to fittings and the sandbags while rattling around. The Italian tank had a much bigger hole and the resultant armour fragments shredded the sandbags. It was not the shot that did the most damage, it was the armour fragments from the brittle Italian armour that did the worst.

So, like for cast armour, some consideration seems to have been given to riveted or overly brittle armour by tweaking the AFs but not the TKs.

I certainly buy your arguments. There really is nothing in ASL however, to describe riveted armor plates falling off on rough hewn roads - exposing the crew to even the smallest of small arms calibres - or simple RHA poor quality steel plates cracking just from trans-shipment on a rocking tramp freighter from Italy to the North African desert, or even the fact that a decently aimed short range burst from a .50 cal BMG set of rounds could sheer off the heads of an entire row of rivets(sunken as soft iron, rather than hardened steel) - causing a breach to appear in the armor plate joints on the Italian tanks. ( as amply described in "Brazen Chariots").

Fact is, that in ASL terms, on an assault vs non- armor units, the M13/40 ASL counter is a powerhouse, and something to fear if you are simply infantry with MGs and maybe a light mortar or two hunkering in a trench or in a sangar or a deir lip for cover. Worse if there are 5 or 6 of them, as seems to be the case in the scenarios they appear in so far.

I'd have put the AF to accurately represent it on service M13/40s as a boxed 2 front, a boxed 1 SR. Give the back of the counter and Cptr H an annotation that any AP/APCR/APDS hit receives an additional +1 to their final TK#. Finally, the Breda MGs on board should all be B11's (BMG/CMG) as should the MA. finally, the MA should be forced to use red TH #s if the tank is BU, and the MPs should be printed in red.

That would, IMO represent an actual battle service M13/40 in DTO/MTO operations. The ASL counter is in short, too strong to represent the tank as is. (which was my original contention.)

KRL, Jon H

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I certainly buy your arguments. There really is nothing in ASL however, to describe riveted armor plates falling off on rough hewn roads - exposing the crew to even the smallest of small arms calibres - or simple RHA poor quality steel plates cracking just from trans-shipment on a rocking tramp freighter from Italy to the North African desert, or even the fact that a decently aimed short range burst from a .50 cal BMG set of rounds could sheer off the heads of an entire row of rivets(sunken as soft iron, rather than hardened steel) - causing a breach to appear in the armor plate joints on the Italian tanks. ( as amply described in "Brazen Chariots").

Yeah, ASL doesn't go THAT far, but then many of those would have not made it to the front anyway. Even the original AH Tobruk game didn't go that far.

Fact is, that in ASL terms, on an assault vs non- armor units, the M13/40 ASL counter is a powerhouse, and something to fear if you are simply infantry with MGs and maybe a light mortar or two hunkering in a trench or in a sangar or a deir lip for cover. Worse if there are 5 or 6 of them, as seems to be the case in the scenarios they appear in so far.

Let's be honest, anything with armour and armament will be pretty devastating to infantry without even some half decent AT assets in cover-less terrain.

I'd have put the AF to accurately represent it on service M13/40s as a boxed 2 front, a boxed 1 SR. Give the back of the counter and Cptr H an annotation that any AP/APCR/APDS hit receives an additional +1 to their final TK#.

As even MG are using the AP table that would mean all except HEAT or HE would be facing a [1], [0]. Sorry, but I could not go that far. I'm actually quite happy with 3,3. The pathetic 37L will kill on a 6, a 40L on a 7 and that seem a good reflection that sometimes the armour works or something less critical is hit. I don't want Boys ATR slaughtering M13s. L3s fine, but not mediums.

Finally, the Breda MGs on board should all be B11's (BMG/CMG) as should the MA. finally, the MA should be forced to use red TH #s if the tank is BU, and the MPs should be printed in red.

The 47 MA was a version of the Bohler 47mm AT and nothing I have read suggests unreliability, so B12 is fine by me. MG B11, OK ... well maybe. As a tank mounted MG less exposed to blowing dust than their infantry counterparts and with a more mechanically minded crew ...? The Soviet 2-6 B11 DP-28 becomes an effective 2-8 B12 (BMG) DT or 4-12 B12 (CMG) DT when vehicle mounted.
The MA is RST and Italy uses Red TH by default, so mandatory BU firing and Red TH anyway, two hits against the 47. The MP is 11 already for the M13/40 and 12 for the M14/41.

 

[Cult.44]

Bump.

Where are my Italians (and Eritreans)!?

 

[Gunner Scott]

About 10 years down the road lol.

Bump.

Where are my Italians (and Eritreans)!?

 

[jrv]

Where are my Italians (and Eritreans)!?

Most likely if you get an additional nationality you will be getting Ethiopians, not Eritreans.

JR