HOB MC roll = Automatic MMC Rally?

Ralph Malf

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Does a broken Squad/ Half-Squad automatically rally if they roll snakeyes on a Morale Check that doesn't eliminate them?
It looks like a broken MMC that rolls a snakeyes on a Morale Check, and has a Final HOB DR of <= 4 would stay Broken but would create a Hero.
Thanks in advance.
 
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bendizoid

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No, snakes eyes on a MC is not a rally. Roll HOB after.
 

Ralph Malf

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No, snakes eyes on a MC is not a rally. Roll HOB after.
Right, I got that. But if the brokie rolls low enough on the HOB DR, could it generate a Hero but not be Rallied?
I think I always assumed a brokie Squad or Half Squad that rolled snakes on a Morale Check (not a Rally Attempt) would rally and then roll for HOB, but I don't actually see that in the rule.
I think I just never rolled low enough to produce a Hero without the brokie MMC also Battle Hardening.
 

bendizoid

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Right, I got that. But if the brokie rolls low enough on the HOB DR, could it generate a Hero but not be Rallied?
I think I always assumed a brokie Squad or Half Squad that rolled snakes on a Morale Check (not a Rally Attempt) would rally and then roll for HOB, but I don't actually see that in the rule.
I think I just never rolled low enough to produce a Hero without the brokie MMC also Battle Hardening.
Yes, a HOB final roll of 4 or less does not rally. A15.21, right side top of page.
 

Orphan76

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How does the HoB DR affect Rally? The DR of 2 that caused the HoB DR would determine Rally. See them bottom of A15.1 where it talks about the +1 DRM modifier for broken units applying even if the unit rallied as a result of the 2 DR which allowed the Heat of Battler DR.
 

dwardzala

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How does the HoB DR affect Rally? The DR of 2 that caused the HoB DR would determine Rally. See them bottom of A15.1 where it talks about the +1 DRM modifier for broken units applying even if the unit rallied as a result of the 2 DR which allowed the Heat of Battler DR.
This is an original DR 2 on an MC by a broken unit, not a rally attempt. If you only generate a hero, the broken unit doesn’t rally.
 

horseshoe

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This is an original DR 2 on an MC by a broken unit, not a rally attempt. If you only generate a hero, the broken unit doesn’t rally.
We played that wrong for years. It always seemed to be a rally on HOB, but its not.
 

Shmitty008

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Battle Hardening would rally the unit though as per A15.3 (second sentence), and also unpins a previously pinned unit (I guess unless that unit was already the best quality unit, then it seems they become a pinned, fanatic unit as I read it)
 

klasmalmstrom

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Battle Hardening would rally the unit though as per A15.3 (second sentence), and also unpins a previously pinned unit (I guess unless that unit was already the best quality unit, then it seems they become a pinned, fanatic unit as I read it)
It would also become unbroken and unpinnned I think. The rules it "also become Fanatic".
 

Eagle4ty

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It would also become unbroken and unpinnned I think. The rules it "also become Fanatic".
There is a possibility based upon Hero creation conditions that may indicate a BH unit would at least remain Pinned:
  • A15.21 (Hero) CREATION: ...The hero shares the MMC's fire/movement status at the time of creation; i.e., if the MMC was marked with a Prep Fire or TI counter, so is the hero.
Though A15.3 does not specifically denote that this same status applies to other units that BH, I do believe it establishes a precedent as A15.4-15.46 specifically lays out exceptions to units that become Berserk due to BH as does A15.5 to units that are subject to Surrender due to BH results. A gray area in COWTRA for sure as I could possibly see the ruling going either way. I'm leaning towards the condition of remaining Pinned though if previously Pinned.
 

klasmalmstrom

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If the argument is that this sentence does not apply to an already Elite squad:

A15.3:
"An armed Personnel Unit can also benefit from a form of Unit Substitution whenever it rolls a 5-8 Final Heat of Battle DR (see also 15.44). This Battle Hardening effect improves the unit in Class (even if broken) by exchanging it for an unbroken, unpinned unit of the same size but the next higher quality."

e.g., thatr a pinned 5-4-8 that BH to Fanatic does not become unpinned, I don't see how a broken 5-4-8 that BH to Fanatic become unbroken either.


When A15.3 later says:
"An already elite MMC (or best possible leader or partisan) which is Battle Hardened also becomes Fanatic (10.8) and is marked with a Fanatic counter."

I think the "also" refers to the "unbroken, unpinned".

I've never seen anyone play as if a broken Elite unit that BH does not become unbroken.
 

Orphan76

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it would not make sense to have lesser quality squads become unbroken and unpinned and then not have elite squads do the same.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I did (at least) find an old (unofficial) Q&A saying they rally.

A15.3 Does a unit which becomes Fanatic
through Battle Hardening also rally as well?
A. Yes. [Compil5]

5) 26 November 1996 (VFTT11)
 
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