HMG crews

[KED]

In one of the original GH scenarios based on Bataan the Americans have one unit of artillery armed with 2 MMGs and 2 HMGs. All guns are maned by crews. Some of the other units have a mixture of both crews and half squads. I just think that crews should be used more often especially for elite units.

 

[dlazov]

That would be The Rock, played it as the US/USMC and won (the new version) not too long ago, great scenario.

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

Crew counters should be used for MMGs & HMGs, Lt Mtrs in ASL.

But no one ever listens to me......

 

[witchbottles]

Crew counters should be used for MMGs & HMGs, Lt Mtrs in ASL.

But no one ever listens to me......

not unless you are advocating shooting Vinnie....

 

[KED]

Crew counters should be used for MMGs & HMGs, Lt Mtrs in ASL.

But no one ever listens to me......

I know the feeling.

 

[witchbottles]

pm sent

 

[KED]

PM sent back.

 

[KED]

That would be The Rock, played it as the US/USMC and won (the new version) not too long ago, great scenario.

The Rock has three US units in their oob. The first is the 4th Marine that uses no crews or half squads.The second is an artillery unit with 5 crews, 3 HMGS and 2 MMGs. The third unit is also from the USMC artillery and has a mix of crews and squads. The 2 MGs in this unit are also provided with crews to man them. The scenario also has 3 Johnson LMGs. SSR 4 requires that these LMGs have 2pp each. This must be where the Lewis gun will show up in RS.

In "Cibik's Ridge" The US forces get 6 half squads that cover their 2 HMGs, 2 MMGs and 2 60mm mortars nicely.

In ASL scenario 25, "Gavin's Gamble" 9 half squads are in the US oob. These seem to cover the 7 MGs and 2 60mm mortars. The 81mm has a crew as it should.

These are just a few examples of using both half squads and crews to man MMGs, HMGs and Lt MTRs by American units. The crews are in line with Mr Swans fine article in my first 2 examples. The 3rd example uses half squads to man these weapons if the player chooses to do so. I only used these examples because I had this stuff out at the time. Can anyone else find more examples from other nations besides the Japanese?

Should a rule exist that a half squad, or crew manning a type of support weapon (MG, Lt MTR) be recorded as the trained user of that weapon so that a Lt MTR half squad can't man a HMG without penalty? Or the other way around? Would a half squad trained on a Lt MTR really know the ins and outs pf a 50calMG or for that matter any heavy MG?

The Italians are going to be re-printed. Except for their LMGs and lt MTRs, most of their troops had no clue how to maintain, feed, or use a HMG. The crews were armed with Carcanno carbines, the weapon that can't hit a folded out news paper at 50yds. I know this because I shot one. With the bayonet it would be better used as a spear. How will MMP handle the Italian forces? I have no problem with HP. Its up tp MMP. I read a book or two on the Winter War and most Finnish troops did well with whatever they could find.

For the most part, with the things I have found I cannot complain, but a little change might be good. I do not whant MMP to change any scenarios, just keep this in mind. I do not want MMP to do the stuff that CH does.

 

[witchbottles]

(snipped)

Should a rule exist that a half squad, or crew manning a type of support weapon (MG, Lt MTR) be recorded as the trained user of that weapon so that a Lt MTR half squad can't man a HMG without penalty? Or the other way around? Would a half squad trained on a Lt MTR really know the ins and outs pf a 50calMG or for that matter any heavy MG?

A good question from a SSR standpoint in design. I myself ran into similar difficulties with the research indicating really the only troops thoroughly familiar with the St Etienne Mle 1907 MGs being those who were purpose -trained with them pre volunteer service. Given that, and the general touchiness overall of a Hotchkiss design, as well as the unique mounts, we finally chose a hungarian mmg B11 with 4PP and a SSR that only the 548/447 manning troops were immune from captured SW penalties for Axis OoB given SWs, and the MMGs are not capable of dm status.

How one ultimately structures it becomes a flavor assigned by the designer. You brought up other salient points on other topics, but I wanted to snip this one out as it plays directly to the crux of ant design decision of how to man your SWs.

KRL, JON H

 

[witchbottles]

I doubt the ital force structure will change at all , being already well representative.

the Steyr-Mannlincher is an excellent rifle; however, well beyond the carcano. some 600,000+ were sent to arm Italian reserves , police, and conscripted units between 1931 and 1940. Chambered in 8mm x 56mm; the round as a jacketed round nose did poorly. Ammunition however was much improved by 1938 and most troops were issued FMJ spitzer rounds with excellent ballistics. The failure to produce an adequate force of fire came from inadequate training with the weapons, not the weapon itself. So our carcano armed 1st liners are 3-4-6 / 3-4-7 by dint of a poor rifle making their FP a 3. our 3-3-6 blackshirts, and San Marcos detachments earn their poor marks for not practicing at the range enough.

Remember , an italian ww2 relic steyr- mannlincher killed President Kennedy from 86 yards with a open sight head shot.

KRL, Jon H

 

[skarper]

But it did have magic bullets....

 

[witchbottles]

But it did have magic bullets....

:laugh:

 

[KED]

I doubt the ital force structure will change at all , being already well representative.

the Steyr-Mannlincher is an excellent rifle; however, well beyond the carcano. some 600,000+ were sent to arm Italian reserves , police, and conscripted units between 1931 and 1940. Chambered in 8mm x 56mm; the round as a jacketed round nose did poorly. Ammunition however was much improved by 1938 and most troops were issued FMJ spitzer rounds with excellent ballistics. The failure to produce an adequate force of fire came from inadequate training with the weapons, not the weapon itself. So our carcano armed 1st liners are 3-4-6 / 3-4-7 by dint of a poor rifle making their FP a 3. our 3-3-6 blackshirts, and San Marcos detachments earn their poor marks for not practicing at the range enough.

Remember , an italian ww2 relic steyr- mannlincher killed President Kennedy from 86 yards with a open sight head shot.

KRL, Jon H

Wrong rifle. There is a "carbine" version. It is much shorter, has welded on sights that are crude at best, but has the same action. Its this piece of junk I'm talking about. This "thing" was issued to many troops in the Italian Army including crews of some weapons. I have a Czarist 1896 Nagant that at 50yds shot 5in groups at best. The carbine I shot was worse than that by 3 or more inches. BTW my nagant has an excuse, the bore was never taken care of by some half trained Russian soldier. My other nagants shoot very well. BTW the weapon that I'm talking about is 6.5mm.

 

[witchbottles]

Wrong rifle. There is a "carbine" version. It is much shorter, has welded on sights that are crude at best, but has the same action. Its this piece of junk I'm talking about. This "thing" was issued to many troops in the Italian Army including crews of some weapons. I have a Czarist 1896 Nagant that at 50yds shot 5in groups at best. The carbine I shot was worse than that by 3 or more inches. BTW my nagant has an excuse, the bore was never taken care of by some half trained Russian soldier. My other nagants shoot very well. BTW the weapon that I'm talking about is 6.5mm.

I agree with you 3, 000,000 copies of a weak Mle Fusile 1935 Carcano originally chambered in 7mm x 57 and stepped down to a wimpy 6.5 mm x 53. this made crappy FP for the active duty components of the italian army, hence 4-4-7 for elites, and 3-4-7 and 3-4-6 for 1st liners.

Nonetheless, Austria sent Italy more than a half - million copies of the excellent Steyr- Mannlincher in 1931, 1936 and 1938, to arm the reservist units, conscripts, and blackshirt battalions. These arm sales are very well documented , and more than 100,000 of these rifles were collected post war by the U.S Army and exported back to the U.S, again, very well documented. Again, sold as "wartime surplus" in 1955-1959 by Rock Island Arsenal, very well documented; to U.S. buyers. One of those 100,000 italian owned and used during WW2 rifles shot JFK., and damn, good, too. Not surprising, given the accuracy of the mannlincher.

Your Carcano came in 4 separate versions, each progressively worse and less capable. Many of these have likewise ended up on surplus markets worldwide. The Cubans used this rifle and its cheap availability to arm the Angolan Nationalist Army in 1974. They have fared poorly with it as well, it is, as you noted, a P.O.S.

Nonetheless., the 336 conscript is not the guy armed with this crap. He has a good rifle and zero to no training how to use it, so he is quite humble in FP.

KRL, Jon H

 

[Rock SgtDan]

>Remember , an italian ww2 relic steyr- mannlincher killed President Kennedy from 86 yards with a open sight head shot.

No, it had a scope. So the inherent accuracy of the rifle is maximized vs sighting error with open sights.

 

[KED]

>Remember , an italian ww2 relic steyr- mannlincher killed President Kennedy from 86 yards with a open sight head shot.

No, it had a scope. So the inherent accuracy of the rifle is maximized vs sighting error with open sights.

I agree about the scope. But it must be remembered that Oswald shot at some American general at less than 50yds with the same rifle and scope and missed. The gun was not that good and neither were the optics. The shooter was worst. My 1896 Nagant can shoot a 5in group at 50yds, that's the best it will do benched. I have a newer Nagant that I can hit boling pins at 100yds every time. The older gun with it's Zarist markings will become a wall hanger.