HMG crews

KED

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
72
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
Would it be more appropriate to use crew MMC for most nations HMG and MMG? I would exempt Germany for the simple fact that a MG34/42 is still a MG34/42 no matter the configuration. The main concern hear would be 50cal and water cooled MMGand HMG. Any thoughts on this?
 

Srynerson

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,605
Reaction score
367
Location
Denver
Country
llUnited States
Would it be more appropriate to use crew MMC for most nations HMG and MMG? I would exempt Germany for the simple fact that a MG34/42 is still a MG34/42 no matter the configuration. The main concern hear would be 50cal and water cooled MMGand HMG. Any thoughts on this?
If you don't mind people saying, "ZOMG!1!!1! Grudge roolz!!1!one" then go for it.
 

Kevin Kenneally

Elder Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
18,066
Reaction score
888
Location
Central Texas USA.
Country
llUnited States
Would it be more appropriate to use crew MMC for most nations HMG and MMG? I would exempt Germany for the simple fact that a MG34/42 is still a MG34/42 no matter the configuration. The main concern hear would be 50cal and water cooled MMGand HMG. Any thoughts on this?
A machine gun crew for a HMG should be an Infantry Crew counter.

The extra ammunition, barrels and equipment (tripods, traverse and elevation mechanism) all have to be carried by the crew, and the supporting personnel within the platoon.

I would recommend a "Yes" to this (even for the Germans).

Now the German's fired mainly the 7.92 round through the machine guns, but there are a few instances where "older" types (Maxim 08) were also used by the German's and their allies.
 

KED

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
72
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
A machine gun crew for a HMG should be an Infantry Crew counter.

The extra ammunition, barrels and equipment (tripods, traverse and elevation mechanism) all have to be carried by the crew, and the supporting personnel within the platoon.

I would recommend a "Yes" to this (even for the Germans).

Now the German's fired mainly the 7.92 round through the machine guns, but there are a few instances where "older" types (Maxim 08) were also used by the German's and their allies.
If the Germans had water cooled HMGs in the game then they too would require a crew.
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
A machine gun crew for a HMG should be an Infantry Crew counter.

The extra ammunition, barrels and equipment (tripods, traverse and elevation mechanism) all have to be carried by the crew, and the supporting personnel within the platoon.

I would recommend a "Yes" to this (even for the Germans).

Now the German's fired mainly the 7.92 round through the machine guns, but there are a few instances where "older" types (Maxim 08) were also used by the German's and their allies.
Maxim 08's
MG -34
MG 42
ZB- 30
ZB - 32
Hotchkiss - A
RPD -1
KPK
Schwarlose MG
St Etienne Mle 1915

All used by just the Germans in many different formations and fronts, of them: The MG -34 and Mg - 42 both used the 7.92 mm round;the Maxim and Schwarlose both used the 8mm x 57 round, the Hotchkiss - A and St Etienne 1915 both used the 8mm Lebel, further the Hotchkiss - A required their Lebel rounds to be greased before aligning in the feed tray for proper extraction; and on ; and on , and on. i.e. there was ZERO standardization in the Reich armed units, and even the little that was attempted fell by the wayside in the name of war expediency. I'll get off that soapbox and leave it best to Paul Weir; much more knowledgeable about MGs than he lets on :)

KRL, Jon H
 

KED

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
72
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
Maxim 08's
MG -34
MG 42
ZB- 30
ZB - 32
Hotchkiss - A
RPD -1
KPK
Schwarlose MG
St Etienne Mle 1915

All used by just the Germans in many different formations and fronts, of them: The MG -34 and Mg - 42 both used the 7.92 mm round;the Maxim and Schwarlose both used the 8mm x 57 round, the Hotchkiss - A and St Etienne 1915 both used the 8mm Lebel, further the Hotchkiss - A required their Lebel rounds to be greased before aligning in the feed tray for proper extraction; and on ; and on , and on. i.e. there was ZERO standardization in the Reich armed units, and even the little that was attempted fell by the wayside in the name of war expediency. I'll get off that soapbox and leave it best to Paul Weir; much more knowledgeable about MGs than he lets on :)

KRL, Jon H
If the Japanese need crews for their MMG and HMG that were based on French designs then why don't the French require crews for theirs? Same goes for some of the Allied minors.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,427
Reaction score
3,365
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
If you go down this rout you might have a very good arguement for not giving the British any MGs but replace it with 4 or 6 factor OBA.
Feel free to do so but I would want to see why it is done in any situation rather than a general rule.
 

KED

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
72
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
If you go down this rout you might have a very good arguement for not giving the British any MGs but replace it with 4 or 6 factor OBA.
Feel free to do so but I would want to see why it is done in any situation rather than a general rule.
OBA? It seems to me that the British had trained gun crews for their Vickers MGs. The British thought of these weapons as defensive. A water cooled MG is difficult at best to haul around the battlefield. They are best used to defend an area. The same can be said about the 50cal HMG. An untrained crew or individual had a chance of blowing himself up. A 50cal round has the explosive power of a grenade! A minor penalty to non crews using these weapons could also work.
 

Vinnie

See Dummies in the index
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
17,427
Reaction score
3,365
Location
Aberdeen , Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
OBa would better represent the way the British used the weapons. They were grouped to give covering dire from a distance rather than integrated into the front line.
 

KED

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
72
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
OBa would better represent the way the British used the weapons. They were grouped to give covering dire from a distance rather than integrated into the front line.
Many nations used the same tactics in WWI. But the water cooled MGs were also used for direct fire.
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
OBA? It seems to me that the British had trained gun crews for their Vickers MGs. The British thought of these weapons as defensive. A water cooled MG is difficult at best to haul around the battlefield. They are best used to defend an area. The same can be said about the 50cal HMG. An untrained crew or individual had a chance of blowing himself up. A 50cal round has the explosive power of a grenade! A minor penalty to non crews using these weapons could also work.
It is highly unlikely one could manage to blow oneself up with the M2 HB GPMG, or any of its varieties or descendants.

Having crewed one for many years in the Left door of a CH- 53 D / E as Observer / Gunner, I can state that well enough firsthand. Far, far, far more likely is the incorrect headspacing set on the breechplate by the gunner causing failure to extract and linkage jam after linkage jam in a horrendous shard of twisted metal in the action once the butterflys are depressed. It really is quite messy, capable of rendering the MG quickly hors de combat and in eed of a good armorer to repair the damage caused, and quite debilitating, not to mention the failure to extract will send the bolt in full blowback against the recoil spring and the shuddering jar will be felt all way up to the gunner's funny bones. Not nice, but no catastrophic detonation of ammunition, either. The .50 BMG or .50 SLAP rounds both require a large central force drive to rupture the aluminum cap over the fulminate of mercury bead in the primer in order to commence detonation. Many times, improper assembly can cause dimpling, or incomplete primer strike by the firing pin, resulting in "dud " rounds.

Far more common also in vehicular or airborne mountings is the propensity of a gunner in the heat of combat to fail to recognize his traverse limits and place ammunition strikes into his own conveyance.

KRL, Jon H
 

BigAl737

Elder Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
1,269
Location
AK
Country
llUnited States
I learn so much from this forum. Really cool.
 

KED

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
72
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
It is highly unlikely one could manage to blow oneself up with the M2 HB GPMG, or any of its varieties or descendants.

Having crewed one for many years in the Left door of a CH- 53 D / E as Observer / Gunner, I can state that well enough firsthand. Far, far, far more likely is the incorrect headspacing set on the breechplate by the gunner causing failure to extract and linkage jam after linkage jam in a horrendous shard of twisted metal in the action once the butterflys are depressed. It really is quite messy, capable of rendering the MG quickly hors de combat and in eed of a good armorer to repair the damage caused, and quite debilitating, not to mention the failure to extract will send the bolt in full blowback against the recoil spring and the shuddering jar will be felt all way up to the gunner's funny bones. Not nice, but no catastrophic detonation of ammunition, either. The .50 BMG or .50 SLAP rounds both require a large central force drive to rupture the aluminum cap over the fulminate of mercury bead in the primer in order to commence detonation. Many times, improper assembly can cause dimpling, or incomplete primer strike by the firing pin, resulting in "dud " rounds.

Far more common also in vehicular or airborne mountings is the propensity of a gunner in the heat of combat to fail to recognize his traverse limits and place ammunition strikes into his own conveyance.

KRL, Jon H
What you say is true. But a catastrophic failure has the explosive power of a hand grenade. One of those in your face can ruin your day!
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
What you say is true. But a catastrophic failure has the explosive power of a hand grenade. One of those in your face can ruin your day!
I would generally agree in a very narrow set of circumstances. Similarly, one's entire day could be spoilt by having a Jumbo Jet Liner crash right on top of you while you are working in the office. Although it has happened; the odds of it occurring in the first place, or re- occurring again , are about equal to having the International Space Station fall out of the sky and into your backyard one evening. Not generally something to worry over. ( Catastrophic failure, i.e. premature detonation of a 50 BMG or 50 SLAP round in your face while attempting to load and fire the weapon.)

Now I would not get within 5000 yards of a burning ammunition dump with stored 50 cal ammunition in it.

I have seen first - hand the effects that a raging fire can have on stored ammunition. I must say, the inventor of the G.I. Issue Ammo Can knew what he was doing. 350+ rounds of 12 ga ammo of various loads; 250+ rounds of 20 ga ammo of various loads; 100 rounds of 25 ACP FMJ; 100 rounds of 38 Special +P+ 158 gr Hydra shok JHP ; 100 rounds of .30-40 Krag Spitzer; 200 rounds of 8mm x 57 Mauser Nosler PTBT; 50 rounds of Federal .357 Mag SJHP; two 1 LB cans of Black Elephant FFFg Black Powder; and 200+/- #1 Percussion Caps. All stored in G.I. Issue .50 cal Ammo cans pre -fire. The entire lot detonated in the cans during the blaze. end result in the rubble - 5 very warped , bent and misshapen but still intact ammo cans; full of blackened casings, melted and charred plastic hulls, and a collection of about 65 pounds of melted and misshapen lead projectiles. Nothing penetrated the canisters, and the steel sided locker they were stored within in my closet was , except for charred paint, one of the few salvaged items from that fire, as it was intact. A very scary thought if something had.... Burning ammunition is something to run away from, as fast as possible.

Of course, the fire removed the reasons for the ammunition well enough, destroying all 11 firearms in my fireproof safe ( it was a Liberty Safe, rated for 30 minutes at temperatures >=1700 F. ) The fire Dept took 48 minutes to arrive, and another hour to put it all out.

A collection of charcoaled stocks and warped by heat tempering steel was a good boat anchor, nothing more.

and yes, I miss my Krag and my Mauser and my J.P.Sauer black powder 12 bore fowling piece. They were something very nice to behold in their day. The Krag was from a Rock Island Arsenal sale done in 1947. The Mauser was from Switzerland, one of 5,000 traded to the Swiss in return for a crash - landed FW- 190 in 1943. ( among other various small arms). Came in a beat up greasewood crate with straw poking out all over; opened it up there was a black - moldy greasy burlap and grease saturated straw mess in there. 2 hours of removing the crappois via a rag and some Mineral Spirits brought up a new in the crate Mauser with WaffenAmt stamps from under all the axle grease it had been packed in. 3 days of heavy cleaning; a saturation in a dry cleaning solvent tank to remove the hardened deposits in the interior pieces, a light soak in dry cleaning solvent to pull out the grease from the wood; and then 9 coats of linseed oil to re seal the wood followed by some carnuba wax and voila! a beautiful shooter that took more deer, antelope, and mountain lion than I can recall. the 12 bore fowling piece was one I'd paid too much for at a Cabela's Gun Library in Nebraska one year, but that was due to the fact that it was the only firearm I've ever seen stocked with White Ash.

an amazing customized stock for a discerning wingshooter. Had to take that, even at $1800 USD back then ( 1997).

But I digress.

the Game provides enough coverage for very random and freak occurrences causing casualties already , from a design standpoint, its called a SAN.

KRL, Jon H
 

Helmseye

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2012
Messages
798
Reaction score
125
Location
twickenham
Country
llUnited Kingdom
I would generally agree in a very narrow set of circumstances. Similarly, one's entire day could be spoilt by having a Jumbo Jet Liner crash right on top of you while you are working in the office. Although it has happened; the odds of it occurring in the first place, or re- occurring again , are about equal to having the International Space Station fall out of the sky and into your backyard one evening. Not generally something to worry over. ( Catastrophic failure, i.e. premature detonation of a 50 BMG or 50 SLAP round in your face while attempting to load and fire the weapon.)

Now I would not get within 5000 yards of a burning ammunition dump with stored 50 cal ammunition in it.

I have seen first - hand the effects that a raging fire can have on stored ammunition. I must say, the inventor of the G.I. Issue Ammo Can knew what he was doing. 350+ rounds of 12 ga ammo of various loads; 250+ rounds of 20 ga ammo of various loads; 100 rounds of 25 ACP FMJ; 100 rounds of 38 Special +P+ 158 gr Hydra shok JHP ; 100 rounds of .30-40 Krag Spitzer; 200 rounds of 8mm x 57 Mauser Nosler PTBT; 50 rounds of Federal .357 Mag SJHP; two 1 LB cans of Black Elephant FFFg Black Powder; and 200+/- #1 Percussion Caps. All stored in G.I. Issue .50 cal Ammo cans pre -fire. The entire lot detonated in the cans during the blaze. end result in the rubble - 5 very warped , bent and misshapen but still intact ammo cans; full of blackened casings, melted and charred plastic hulls, and a collection of about 65 pounds of melted and misshapen lead projectiles. Nothing penetrated the canisters, and the steel sided locker they were stored within in my closet was , except for charred paint, one of the few salvaged items from that fire, as it was intact. A very scary thought if something had.... Burning ammunition is something to run away from, as fast as possible.

Of course, the fire removed the reasons for the ammunition well enough, destroying all 11 firearms in my fireproof safe ( it was a Liberty Safe, rated for 30 minutes at temperatures >=1700 F. ) The fire Dept took 48 minutes to arrive, and another hour to put it all out.

A collection of charcoaled stocks and warped by heat tempering steel was a good boat anchor, nothing more.

and yes, I miss my Krag and my Mauser and my J.P.Sauer black powder 12 bore fowling piece. They were something very nice to behold in their day. The Krag was from a Rock Island Arsenal sale done in 1947. The Mauser was from Switzerland, one of 5,000 traded to the Swiss in return for a crash - landed FW- 190 in 1943. ( among other various small arms). Came in a beat up greasewood crate with straw poking out all over; opened it up there was a black - moldy greasy burlap and grease saturated straw mess in there. 2 hours of removing the crappois via a rag and some Mineral Spirits brought up a new in the crate Mauser with WaffenAmt stamps from under all the axle grease it had been packed in. 3 days of heavy cleaning; a saturation in a dry cleaning solvent tank to remove the hardened deposits in the interior pieces, a light soak in dry cleaning solvent to pull out the grease from the wood; and then 9 coats of linseed oil to re seal the wood followed by some carnuba wax and voila! a beautiful shooter that took more deer, antelope, and mountain lion than I can recall. the 12 bore fowling piece was one I'd paid too much for at a Cabela's Gun Library in Nebraska one year, but that was due to the fact that it was the only firearm I've ever seen stocked with White Ash.

an amazing customized stock for a discerning wingshooter. Had to take that, even at $1800 USD back then ( 1997).

But I digress.

the Game provides enough coverage for very random and freak occurrences causing casualties already , from a design standpoint, its called a SAN.

KRL, Jon H
Great example and explanation
 

KED

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
72
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
I would generally agree in a very narrow set of circumstances. Similarly, one's entire day could be spoilt by having a Jumbo Jet Liner crash right on top of you while you are working in the office. Although it has happened; the odds of it occurring in the first place, or re- occurring again , are about equal to having the International Space Station fall out of the sky and into your backyard one evening. Not generally something to worry over. ( Catastrophic failure, i.e. premature detonation of a 50 BMG or 50 SLAP round in your face while attempting to load and fire the weapon.)

Now I would not get within 5000 yards of a burning ammunition dump with stored 50 cal ammunition in it.

I have seen first - hand the effects that a raging fire can have on stored ammunition. I must say, the inventor of the G.I. Issue Ammo Can knew what he was doing. 350+ rounds of 12 ga ammo of various loads; 250+ rounds of 20 ga ammo of various loads; 100 rounds of 25 ACP FMJ; 100 rounds of 38 Special +P+ 158 gr Hydra shok JHP ; 100 rounds of .30-40 Krag Spitzer; 200 rounds of 8mm x 57 Mauser Nosler PTBT; 50 rounds of Federal .357 Mag SJHP; two 1 LB cans of Black Elephant FFFg Black Powder; and 200+/- #1 Percussion Caps. All stored in G.I. Issue .50 cal Ammo cans pre -fire. The entire lot detonated in the cans during the blaze. end result in the rubble - 5 very warped , bent and misshapen but still intact ammo cans; full of blackened casings, melted and charred plastic hulls, and a collection of about 65 pounds of melted and misshapen lead projectiles. Nothing penetrated the canisters, and the steel sided locker they were stored within in my closet was , except for charred paint, one of the few salvaged items from that fire, as it was intact. A very scary thought if something had.... Burning ammunition is something to run away from, as fast as possible.

Of course, the fire removed the reasons for the ammunition well enough, destroying all 11 firearms in my fireproof safe ( it was a Liberty Safe, rated for 30 minutes at temperatures >=1700 F. ) The fire Dept took 48 minutes to arrive, and another hour to put it all out.

A collection of charcoaled stocks and warped by heat tempering steel was a good boat anchor, nothing more.

and yes, I miss my Krag and my Mauser and my J.P.Sauer black powder 12 bore fowling piece. They were something very nice to behold in their day. The Krag was from a Rock Island Arsenal sale done in 1947. The Mauser was from Switzerland, one of 5,000 traded to the Swiss in return for a crash - landed FW- 190 in 1943. ( among other various small arms). Came in a beat up greasewood crate with straw poking out all over; opened it up there was a black - moldy greasy burlap and grease saturated straw mess in there. 2 hours of removing the crappois via a rag and some Mineral Spirits brought up a new in the crate Mauser with WaffenAmt stamps from under all the axle grease it had been packed in. 3 days of heavy cleaning; a saturation in a dry cleaning solvent tank to remove the hardened deposits in the interior pieces, a light soak in dry cleaning solvent to pull out the grease from the wood; and then 9 coats of linseed oil to re seal the wood followed by some carnuba wax and voila! a beautiful shooter that took more deer, antelope, and mountain lion than I can recall. the 12 bore fowling piece was one I'd paid too much for at a Cabela's Gun Library in Nebraska one year, but that was due to the fact that it was the only firearm I've ever seen stocked with White Ash.

an amazing customized stock for a discerning wingshooter. Had to take that, even at $1800 USD back then ( 1997).

But I digress.

the Game provides enough coverage for very random and freak occurrences causing casualties already , from a design standpoint, its called a SAN.

KRL, Jon H
I greave for your losses! If my collection burned up I could never replace it. I sold a few that I should have kept like my first year Mini-14 and a stainless PPK. But they got me a SIG and 2 AR's. I hope you can find away to replace your losses.
 

KED

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
72
Location
North Carolina
Country
llUnited States
I understand that the 50cal was issued like popcorn late in the war. But if a squad had one they would lose half their rifle men just to man, haul the dammed thing, and its ammo. Maybe the half-squad is the answer, But that half-squad should be recorded as the only qualified operators of that weapon.
 

witchbottles

Forum Guru
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
9,100
Reaction score
2,254
Location
Rio Vista, CA
Country
llUnited States
Now that I can agree wholeheartedly with. a SSR whereby the non "crew" HS or any other manning unit is treated as non - qualified use per the ASLRB.

give the manning HS a slightly higher ML if you prefer in some cases, a 50 cal in your corner is huge morale booster, after all.

I really have no interest nowadays in replacing my handguns. I owned them at the time for my job. As for the rifles, I will need to find at least one decent flat shooter, my father and I still hunt Mountain Lions in AZ every summer .( At age 70 , he can get 3 'v' ring hits at 100 yards with his Victoria Arms .41 Mag / 12 inch barrel with a handgun scope; offhand; before his arm tires out.) I always preferred a good flat shooting rifle with graduated sights. the Mauser was a nice use for this, better ballistics downrange than the severe bullet drop of a 30-06; and just as much terminal kinetic energy. I will likely find another at some point. although I must admit ogling a M-44 locally owned that is Soviet Arsenal refurbished stamps dating 1979, and available here at a very nice price. that round is not bad at all, comparatively speaking, and it will likely be my rifle purchase in the end. The shotguns were a large collection, thanks to my current job. I have replaced them with the necessary 2 so far, a 16 Ga Model 12 29 inch barrel modified choke for upland game; and a JC Higgins 12 ga 34 in barrel Cutts Compensator 3 inch chamber for waterfowling. The last shotgun is an heirloom piece someone gave me, and would not take back,but it is far too nice a gift. So it is for my kids when I pass on ( a Winchester Model 21 - 20 ga grade III/IV, 95% modern - NRA) That one got an insurance rider. I have shot it once, and probably would take it on a special hunt like Ptarmigan in Alaska, if I can talk Big Al into hosting us whilst we do some wingshooting next summer, LOL :laugh:

KRL, Jon H
 

mgmasl

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
4,285
Reaction score
337
Location
Cadiz
First name
Miguel
Country
llSpain
..... Maybe the half-squad is the answer, But that half-squad should be recorded as the only qualified operators of that weapon.
Or using other words... an infantry crew is needed....
 
Top