HIP unit and CC with escaped prisoners

[BattleSchool]

And what about the ASOP, gentlemen?

8.11B Place onboard beneath a "?" all hidden items, then reveal Strength Factors of all concealed units (eliminating Dummies) (A11.19)

and then,

8.14B Prisoner(s) of broken Guard(s) may declare escape attempt(s) (A20.55).

IMO, the specific situation, while not covered by the ASOP, centres on the fact that a prisoner may attack its Guard and other enemy units simultaneously when trying to escape. In order for a prisoner to determine its CC odds (as per Step 8.21B), the opposing player must reveal a Strength Factor for a concealed unit, even if this unit declines to attack. Given that Hidden Status is otherwise the equivalent of concealment, I reasoned that the opposing player would have to reveal the hidden unit by placing it on board concealed the moment the prisoner becomes eligible to carry out a CC attack.

A12.3 HIDDEN INITIAL PLACEMENT (HIP):

A SSR may allow HIP for one or more units. HIP is a form of concealment wherein a player may secretly record the location of his units in Concealment Terrain (including the TCA/VCA for AFVs and CA for ⅝" ordnance weapons) by written side record rather than placing them on board concealed. Hidden Status is considered the equal of concealment except as otherwise specified.

 

[Philippe D.]

I don't think there is a problem with the odds - if the HIP unit is allowed to remain HIP until attack declarations in CC and opts to do so, I don't think it will be allowed to attack anyway.

So the problem (to me) becomes: is there a point in this sequence where the HIP unit is forced to be placed onboard; and (if at all possible) what happens if the HIP unit is placed onboard at each possible step in this.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

So the problem (to me) becomes: is there a point in this sequence where the HIP unit is forced to be placed onboard;

I have not found any rule requiring it - but that's probably because I don't think the rules-writers anticipated this rare/obscure/will-happen-seldom situation.

 

[ScottRomanowski]

I don't think the rules-writers anticipated this rare/obscure/will-happen-seldom situation.

If they tried, you'd have rules that begin with things like "If lightning strikes your dice glass ≥ three times as you roll an Original DR 2..."

 

[Sparafucil3]

If they tried, you'd have rules that begin with things like "If lightning strikes your dice glass ≥ three times as you roll an Original DR 2..."

That's in A30. -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If they tried, you'd have rules that begin with things like "If lightning strikes your dice glass ≥ three times as you roll an Original DR 2..."

Were there not rules for lighting strikes in one of the Annuals/Journals?

 

[Stewart]

To coincide with the ASOP.

At the end of the CCPh, it now turns into a Melee, and The prisoner is now capable of independent movement, thereby, "becoming" its own unit (not "portaged" by the enemy)... THEN the HIP unit would have to be placed onboard under a ?ment as it is now in the same location as an enemy unit.

Timing could be worked out.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

If the hidden unit is placed onboard it would probably still be Concealed, so there's no Melee...A11.15:
"Any unit which retains its concealment (11.19) is not locked in Melee itself nor can it hold opposing units in Melee."

 

[Sparafucil3]

To coincide with the ASOP.

At the end of the CCPh, it now turns into a Melee, and The prisoner is now capable of independent movement, thereby, "becoming" its own unit (not "portaged" by the enemy)... THEN the HIP unit would have to be placed onboard under a ?ment as it is now in the same location as an enemy unit.

Timing could be worked out.

Pretty sure once it's passed it TC to attack the Guard it is no longer being "portaged". I think @BattleSchool's argument regarding knowing was CC attack you are making is the most compelling. Still, this is not covered in the rules so we are more or less waxing poetic here. -- jim

 

[BattleSchool]

So the problem (to me) becomes: is there a point in this sequence where the HIP unit is forced to be placed onboard;

Apart from A11.19, which is an exception to the Concealment Loss/Gain Table, there is nothing that requires a hidden unit to be placed on board at any point in the CCPh, Conversely, there is little to prevent a hidden unit from forfeiting hidden status at a later point in the CCPh. Just as concealment can be forfeited at (almost) any time, so can hidden status.

 

[BattleSchool]

I don't think there is a problem with the odds - if the HIP unit is allowed to remain HIP until attack declarations in CC and opts to do so, I don't think it will be allowed to attack anyway.

I think you misunderstood my point about calculating CC odds. Whether or not the hidden unit decides to attack in CC is irrelevant. Because the prisoner attacks first, and because it is entitled to attack any or all units in the Location as long as it also attacks its Guard, it is (normally) entitled to know what the Strength Factors of all opposing units in the Location are, concealed or otherwise, in order to calculate the CC odds.

But wait, there's more!

Given the presence of a hidden unit in the Location, ambush ought to be a possibility too. (Granted the prisoner would receive a +1 drm for being Lax, (and absent any other drm) the net drm of the Guard's side would be -1 [+1 broken, -2 concealed]).

Ambush is important because it may influence what the prisoner decides to attack in CC. Moreover, if the prisoner succeeds in ambushing its opponents, concealment would be lost, leading to the possibility of Melee.

All this is to say that it's important to establish whether A11.19 would apply retroactively should a situation such as yours occur. Have you sent the question to Perry?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

At the time in the ASOP Ambush is resolved, there aren't units of the opposing sides in the Location, then it's just a Prisoner.

Plus the thers's no advance involved, nor is the hidden unit placed onboard as per A11.19:
"A hidden unit must be placed on board beneath a “?” counter at the start of any CCPh in which it is in the same Location as an enemy unit."

At the start of the CCPh, there's no enemy unit in the Location, just a broken Guard with its Prisoner.

 

[BattleSchool]

At the time in the ASOP Ambush is resolved, there aren't units of the opposing sides in the Location, then it's just a Prisoner.

Shouldn't you be in bed?

If A11.19 (Step 8.11B) is determined to be applied retroactively (by the powers that be), then presumably Step 8.12B would also apply, because at that point there would be a concealed unit in the same Location as an "enemy" unit.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I can't be blamed that the football match went into overtime....but, yes I probably should go to bed now...

Has anyone sent MMP a Q&A on this matter?