HIP unit and CC with escaped prisoners

Philippe D.

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A broken unit Guarding prisoners routs into a hex with a friendly HIP unit.

During the CCPh, the prisoners pass their TC and attack their Guards. They succeed in eliminating them and are rearmed.

Now this results in a HIP unit in the same hex with a Known Enemy Unit - what happens then?
 

Sparafucil3

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A broken unit Guarding prisoners routs into a hex with a friendly HIP unit.

During the CCPh, the prisoners pass their TC and attack their Guards. They succeed in eliminating them and are rearmed.

Now this results in a HIP unit in the same hex with a Known Enemy Unit - what happens then?
IMO, once the Prisoners pass the NTC, they are no longer "friendly" and the HIP would be placed on the board Concealed and the owner would decide if they participate in the CC. If played as you have played it here, they would be placed on the board Concealed, the Location would be marked with a CC counter and the game would proceed normally as if a unit Advanced into a Concealed unit's Location and the Concealed unit opted not to participate in CC. -- jim
 
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Philippe D.

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IMO, once the Prisoners pass the NTC, they are no longer "friendly" and the HIP would be placed on the board Concealed and the owner would decide if they participate in the CC.
This is a reasonable option, but I cannot find it in the rules or the Concealment Table. The Concealment Table does mention losing concealment when an enemy unit appears in their Location, only when one tries to Move/Rout in it. Also, note that the prisoners are an unarmed unit, though this doesn't seem to matter
 

BattleSchool

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This is a reasonable option, but I cannot find it in the rules or the Concealment Table. The Concealment Table does mention losing concealment when an enemy unit appears in their Location, only when one tries to Move/Rout in it. Also, note that the prisoners are an unarmed unit, though this doesn't seem to matter
But the HIP unit isn't losing concealment. It's losing HIP status.

I nevertheless agree that there's a question as to whether this would occur at all. As A11.19 states, a HIP unit is placed on board at the start of a CCPh. The "enemy unit" in your EX doesn't appear until later in the CCPh.

...A hidden unit must be placed on board beneath a concealment counter at the start of any CCPh in which it is in the same Location as an enemy unit.
 

javanabal

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Advanced Sequence Of Play seems to be useful to look at, in this situation.

8.11B states about hip going "?". Its the first step of the CCPh in a given location.
Then, you have to go to 8.14B for prisoner(s) declaring an escape attempt (passing the NTC).
Would you have to go back from 8.14 to 8.11 again?


cheers
 

BattleSchool

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Advanced Sequence Of Play seems to be useful to look at, in this situation.

8.11B states about hip going "?". Its the first step of the CCPh in a given location.
Then, you have to go to 8.14B for prisoner(s) declaring an escape attempt (passing the NTC).
Would you have to go back from 8.14 to 8.11 again?


cheers
As you note, it's Location specific. Once you step through 8.11B in a Location, I'd argue that you can't return to 8.11B for that Location. Granted, there could be an EXC, but I don't think it was anticipated when the rules were drafted. That said, I believe that the HIP unit has the option of being placed on board concealed during Step 8.11B. Either way, the presence of this unit, HIP or otherwise, presents additional problems should the prisoner eliminate its Guard.

For the sake of argument, let's agree that a prisoner which passes its NTC qualifies as an "enemy unit" for the purposes of A11.19. Let's also agree that this change of status is retroactive, forcing any hidden units to be placed immediately on board concealed. Fair enough. Close Combat between Guard and prisoner eliminates the Guard. What is the status of the "prisoner" at this point?

According to A20.55, escape is only successful if there are "no enemy units in the same Location (other than prisoners)." (This also begs the question as to whether an unarmed enemy unit such as a truck would prevent escape.)

Has the prisoner escaped? If not, can it rearm as per A20.551? If so, does the rearmed unit have freedom of action? Or must it eliminate the previously hidden unit in order to escape, before it can gain freedom of action? For example, if the HIP unit retained concealment, is the former prisoner free to leave the Location during the MPh or APh?

Let's look at it another way. If the prisoner in the OP's example was a leader, it clearly would not be rearmed per A20.551, because it would not have escaped due to the presence of an enemy unit in its Location. Therefore it could not leave the Location. Nor could it use an Inherent SW such as a PF or MOL, because it remains unarmed.

So, is escape a precondition of rearming, or not? (Note that A20.551 is a subset of the rules for escape.) If not, is escape a precondition for "freedom of action?"

A20.55 ESCAPE:
Unless a Melee exists in the Location, prisoners must pass a NTC before they can attack their Guard. This attack can only occur during the CCPh and only if the Guard is broken. Once a Melee exists within the Location, prisoners may, during the CCPh, attack without passing a NTC and even if the Guard is not broken. Prisoners must eliminate their Guard before they can attack any other units in that Location unless they attack their Guard and other units in the same Location as part of the same CC attack. Once Melee exists with a Guard, prisoners may attempt Withdrawal from Melee (11.2) in a subsequent CCPh. Prisoner CC attacks are sequential in that the prisoners may make all of their CC attacks before they can be attacked in turn by the survivors and any other enemy units in that Location. Escape is successful only if there are no enemy units in the same Location (other than prisoners) or by successful Withdrawal from Melee or Infiltration (11.22), in which case the former prisoner unit has freedom of action thereafter until recaptured.
A20.551 REARMING:
Escaped SMC are always Armed. One attacking Unarmed friendly unit of equal or smaller size is rearmed immediately for each armed enemy unit it eliminated/captured in CC (or by any other means if no other enemy unit is currently in the same Location), but the unarmed unit is replaced with a Green or Conscript squad/HS of its size and nationality (complete with any inherent SW).
 
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EagleIV

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Prisoner MMC who kill an enemy unit in CC immediately rearm per A20.551 even if there are currently other enemy units in the location.

In the OP the HIP unit is placed on board concealed once the former prisoner is armed.
 

javanabal

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Prisoner MMC who kill an enemy unit in CC immediately rearm per A20.551 even if there are currently other enemy units in the location.

In the OP the HIP unit is placed on board concealed once the former prisoner is armed.
meaning that there is a new situation of close combat to resolve in the same phase
 

Larry

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A20.55

Prisoner CC attacks are sequential in
that the prisoners may make all of their CC attacks before they can be attacked
in turn by the survivors and any other enemy units in that Location.
The sequence would have to start over after the prisoners escape or the HIP comes on because the prisoners might pass the NTC and might kill the guard. One of those ... maybe.
 

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Foul or insulting language is not allowed.
Let's look at it another way. If the prisoner in the OP's example was a leader, it clearly would not be rearmed per A20.551, because it would not have escaped due to the presence of an enemy unit in its Location. Therefore it could not leave the Location. Nor could it use an Inherent SW such as a PF or MOL, because it remains unarmed.
If it were a leader, the leader return to his original Leader state and is not considered Unarmed at that point.
A "prisoner" leader can still use his Leadership DRM with the prisoners.

Another consideration,
8.12B RESOLVE AMBUSH.
So, does that mean if you ambush you resolve the attack now and conduct the attacks...i.e. don't get to 8.16B where leaders are assigned to units....
Thereby, killing leaders PRETTY damn easily?


In this case 8.12B doesn't seem necessary since 8.21B does exactly the same thing.


Point being the term prisoner and Unarmed unit are tossed around poorly in the RB.
No where can a Broken unit relinquish it's possession of the prisoners in CC....Only the Rally and Adv Ph. NOT the CCPh...regardless of withdrawing from MELEE later on.
If that were the case then it needs to be specified that the prisoners are FREED when MELEE exists with the same limitations of attack.

But the prisoner rules have been and will continue to be until rewritten by some dickweed...it's been 30yrs...it'll take another 20 min to be addressed...Embarrassing to ignore the section that can occur VERY often in games. Thank GOD most people NQ to ignore the rules.... but then again since they've done that for 30 yrs, the rules have been ignored.
 
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javanabal

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IMO, once the Prisoners pass the NTC, they are no longer "friendly" and the HIP would be placed on the board Concealed and the owner would decide if they participate in the CC. If played as you have played it here, they would be placed on the board Concealed, the Location would be marked with a CC counter and the game would proceed normally as if a unit Advanced into a Concealed unit's Location and the Concealed unit opted not to participate in CC. -- jim
If it had to be played this way, I suppose that ASOP would have set escape attempt as the first step of CCPh, followed by application of A11.19. And so, we would have a 8.11B step with declare escape attempts, followed by a 8.12B step for application of A 11.19. BUT, this is not the case, so what?
 
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javanabal

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Prisoner MMC who kill an enemy unit in CC immediately rearm per A20.551 even if there are currently other enemy units in the location.

In the OP the HIP unit is placed on board concealed once the former prisoner is armed.
In this case, the same unit, first as a prisoner, second as an armed unit, is attacking twice in the same CCPh, which is prohibited by A11.12. ??
 
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Sparafucil3

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If it had to be played this way, I suppose that ASOP would have set escape attempt as the first step of CCPh, followed by application of A11.19. And so, we would have a 8.11B step with declare escape attempts, followed by a 8.12B step for application of A 11.19. BUT, this is not the case, so what?
IMO == In my opinion. An acknowledgement I have no rule I can quote. This situation is outside the context of rules we can quote. If I could have, I would have. All I am left with is how the system works elsewhere and trying to make an extrapolation that is as fair and as consistent with the rules elsewhere as I can. If you want a rule, expect it to be made up whole-cloth by Perry if he ever answers this. -- jim
 

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Based on the OP's EX, I think the HIP unit would have to placed on board the moment the prisoner passed its NTC. This would have to occur in order for the prisoner to determine its CC attack odds, as it would have the option of attacking the concealed unit and its Guard simultaneously (A11.19; A20.55).

Assuming the concealed unit retained concealment (thereby opting not to engage in CC), and assuming that the prisoner attacked only the Guard, and eliminated, the prisoner would be rearmed (partially or fully). It would also "escape," but only if the enemy unit remained concealed, and therefore unknown to it, thereby granting freedom of action to the former prisoner. (Personally I think the "escape" provision was only intended to apply to units that are unable to rearm, but A20.55 doesn't spell this out.)

Finally, if the enemy unit dropped concealment after the prisoner made its CC attack, both units would end the CCPh in Melee.
 

Sparafucil3

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Based on the OP's EX, I think the HIP unit would have to placed on board the moment the prisoner passed its NTC. This would have to occur in order for the prisoner to determine its CC attack odds, as it would have the option of attacking the concealed unit and its Guard simultaneously (A11.19; A20.55).
Wish I had said this :p At least great minds (or mediocre in my case) think alike. -- jim
 

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And what about the ASOP, gentlemen?

8.11B Place onboard beneath a "?" all hidden items, then reveal Strength Factors of all concealed units (eliminating Dummies) (A11.19)

and then,

8.14B Prisoner(s) of broken Guard(s) may declare escape attempt(s) (A20.55).
 
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klasmalmstrom

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Based on the OP's EX, I think the HIP unit would have to placed on board the moment the prisoner passed its NTC.
I am not saying you are incorrect or correct. I simpy don't think the rules cover the situation (after that not-so-deep dive I have taken)...I don't see any rule actually forcing the hidden unit to be placed onboard.
 

BattleSchool

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I am not saying you are incorrect or correct. I simpy don't think the rules cover the situation (after that not-so-deep dive I have taken)...I don't see any rule actually forcing the hidden unit to be placed onboard.
Agreed. A Q&A would need to confirm what I think ought to happen. That said, other interpretations are possible.

For example, one could argue that the hidden unit is not compelled to relinquish Hidden Status, because A11.19 requires an enemy unit to trigger loss of Hidden Status. Absent any definition of "enemy" unit, we are left with the definition for a KEU, which specificaly excludes prisoners. Based on this (admittedly weak) argument, the prisoner remains a prisoner until it eliminates its Guard and escapes. At that point, however, we are in really uncharted territory.

For instance, would the hidden unit be permitted to attack the escapee? If not, under what conditions may the hidden unit continue to remain hidden given the presence of a bonafide enemy unit in its Location? Assuming the escapee remains in the Location (and undertakes neither Mopping Up nor Search), may the hidden unit remain hidden until the start of the next CCPh? I dunno. But it seems a lot easier to place the unit on board concealed the moment the prisoner passes its NTC. This would avoid a lot of knock-on angst.

Known Enemy Unit
(any unconcealed, non-prisoner enemy unit—even one which is broken or in Melee—which the unit in question currently has a LOS to)
A11.19 CONCEALMENT:
The FP of an attacking unit is always halved when attacking a concealed Unit in CC. For that reason, it is rarely wise to attack both concealed and unconcealed units in the same CC attack. Even though concealed, a unit in CC must reveal its Strength Factor prior to both sides' declaration of CC attacks in that Location. Dummy units are automatically removed prior to attack designation in CC because they cannot reveal a Strength Factor. A hidden unit must be placed on board beneath a concealment counter at the start of any CCPh in which it is in the same Location as an enemy unit. A unit loses its concealment in the CCPh only if it makes/directs a CC attack [EXC: a successful Ambush; 11.4] or suffers Casualty Reduction.
 
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