HIP puzzler

[jfardette]

Let’s say I think my clever opponent has some HIP guys out there, but I think I know where they are. With clever maneuvers I get my troops in place. I blast the location but botch the dice roll. They are still HIP. My other guys shoot but also miss their roll, no effect again. But wait, this attack qualifies for encirclement!

So what the hell happens now? The target does not need to be known to be encircled, at least in the places I checked the rules. But being encircled does not cause concealment (or HIP) loss. Do I just put a provisional encirclement marker on that location until the situation is resolved, either he has guys there who are encircled or I guessed wrong?

 

[bendizoid]

Let’s say I think my clever opponent has some HIP guys out there, but I think I know where they are. With clever maneuvers I get my troops in place. I blast the location but botch the dice roll. They are still HIP. My other guys shoot but also miss their roll, no effect again. But wait, this attack qualifies for encirclement!

So what the hell happens now? The target does not need to be known to be encircled, at least in the places I checked the rules. But being encircled does not cause concealment (or HIP) loss. Do I just put a provisional encirclement marker on that location until the situation is resolved, either he has guys there who are encircled or I guessed wrong?

Hmm, yes, a provisional encirclement marker sounds best and is the ‘cooler’ choice. A 7.7 does say “Any non-Aerial Infantry” so assuming HIP guys are amongst the ‘Any’, I’m going all in.


Note: the definition of ‘Infantry’ does not specify nor imply onboard status.

I rest my case

I’m just a caveman and your ASL world frightens and confuses me.











But then I wonder, does the encirclement marker ’slide’ off the map because it’s got nothing to stick to ? Is it possible you need a result to place the encirclement marker in this specific case (like a 1 table attack that might cower) ??.....







Well, just checked and in A7.7 it says it remains “in that location until they all leave...” so I guess it ‘sticks’.







But then again it’s a ‘White Counter’ . It ain’t like acquisition. I suppose this encirclement counter applies to the whole hex itself and any unit therein.





Wait a second... that means the encirclement marker would stay in place if there is/was the possibility of a HIP guy being there, it would never go away, potentially, it would become an unending encircling death hex. It would attack both sides equally, a force of nature. Tearing the very fabric of Time and Space in the ASL Continuum.




DOES NOT COMPUTE !!!

 

[jfardette]

Yeah, I can’t wrap my head around it either. But I find myself in a game right now where I could potentially make it happen so I tried to look it up. I’m not smart enough to play this game.

 

[semenza]

I would say the HIP units are not Infantry. The Infantry definition says " ....... counters .... " . I don't think there is an Infantry target to fire at and thus no Encirclement of the Location will take place.

Seth

 

[bendizoid]

I would say the HIP units are not Infantry. The Infantry definition says " ....... counters .... " . I don't think there is an Infantry target to fire at and thus no Encirclement of the Location will take place.

Seth

Counters, schmounters, they’re offboard yet strangely still exist.


Seems the attack must have an effect on a HIP unit to place the marker. That might be a good idea !?

 

[bendizoid]

I would say the HIP units are not Infantry. The Infantry definition says " ....... counters .... " . I don't think there is an Infantry target to fire at and thus no Encirclement of the Location will take place.

Seth

So, you’re say’in sometimes units ain’t counters ? Is that what you’re say’in ? I call BS, lolol.

 

[Larry]

The rule does not make exception for counters noted to be offboard. Put the encircled counter on the map. It may be encircled or it may be empty.

 

[Stewart]

A qualifying target Location is thereafter marked with an Encirclement counter and
every non-berserk, non-heroic enemy/Melee Personnel unit therein suffers
an immediate one level drop in morale to both the attack that sealed its Encirclement
and any other attacks made against that Location as long as it is so
marked.

It makes no distinction of the concealment status of the units in the qualifying target location.

 

[Actionjick]

Perhaps throwing another twist to the puzzle consider Upper Level Encirclement. Is an Encirclement Counter placed in an Upper Level every time the non HIP player moves into a building that would normally Encircle a Unit?

Interesting thread and amazing that after nearly forty years these types of issues arise. Obviously an overly complex game but you still have to love it.

 

[WuWei]

Perhaps throwing another twist to the puzzle consider Upper Level Encirclement. Is an Encirclement Counter placed in an Upper Level every time the non HIP player moves into a building that would normally Encircle a Unit?

Do you actually place Encirclement counters for Upper Level Encirclement? I never do.

 

[Actionjick]

Do you actually place Encirclement counters for Upper Level Encirclement? I never do.

Lol I can't recall. I only had a half cup of coffee when I read the OP and against my better judgment posted a thought. Guess I better dig out the rules.

Thanks!

 

[Actionjick]

Do you actually place Encirclement counters for Upper Level Encirclement? I never do.

I checked A7.7 and A7.72 and it seems as if an Encirclement counter would be placed.

 

[EagleIV]

Do you actually place Encirclement counters for Upper Level Encirclement? I never do.

I agree, it isn't worth placing counters for upper level encirclement since you then need to remember what is encircled by fire and what is upper level encircled.

As for "counters" HIP units are "counters", they just aren't on the board.

I would say place the encircled counter and leave it until it is verified that the location doesn't contain an enemy unit. This can be done by the other player just stating that there is nobody there (usually this would be done just before he plans to move/etc. someone there) or you move someone there or you fire there again.

 

[Kijug]

It just dawned on me... If an upper level is encircled, and you don't place an encircled counter (I don't) but then if the ENEMY leaves the stairwell location...is the entire building still encircled 'cause it "was" once the ENEMY camped out in the stairwell location? I guess for upper building encirclement, I've always played the ENEMY has to "stay" on the stairs to keep the encirclement. [This is different from a "normal" encirclement as I've been playing it]

 

[Larry]

A7.72 --
This type of Encirclement is broken the instant such a path can be
traced.

 

[jfardette]

Well since we are all about hypotheticals today, let’s add to the conundrum. That lonely, provisional encirclement counter is still sitting there and my crafty opponent moves a real unit into the hex. Now we don‘t know if he’s encircled or not! I think for ease of play if nothing else, it doesn’t make sense to place provisional encirclement. Either that or add a rule that HIP units are placed on board, concealed, if encircled. The rabbit hole gets too deep For me.

 

[Kijug]

A7.72 --
This type of Encirclement is broken the instant such a path can be
traced.

LOL! Without remembering the rule, I guess I’ve been playing it right! Sometimes, just playing for long times, you just do it. Thanks!

 

[Old Noob]

Paging Mr. Schrodinger, Mr. Schrodinger please pick up the phone inside the booby-trapped box.

 

[semenza]

I think the idea of provisional encirclement is a nice idea on the surface but, beside the fact that it doesn't exist, I can see it creating new issues.

Here is one .....................

Player 'A' creates a provisionally encircled location (by fire, not upper level). The player 'B' now moves a squad into that location.

After the Mph is that squad now encircled? Even if the location is devoid of HIP units?

Does the player 'B' have to say that there are no HIP units in that location to avoid encirclement? If so doesn't that in effect allow the encirclement to reveal HIP?

-------------------------------------------------------------

In actual practice what effect does this provisional encirclement have on PTO scenarios with lots of HIP Japanese units?

How about a new tactic of creating provisionally encircled locations whenever possible.

I don't know what the best answer is to this situation. Not so sure provisional encirclement is a good one. Just some thoughts.

Seth

 

[WuWei]

It it's a problem, it's easily fixable with a house rule: "If a shot at a location without unit counters in it would cause encirclement, HIP units in that hex have to be placed on the map."

In practice, I haven't played a lot of of scenarios where that would be a good use of firepower.