HIP Mines

[Tim Niesen]

I do not have the rule book with me, or even available at home. Locked in my attic.
What are the restrictions upon HIP and the employment of mines? I think that they can be HIP in open ground. And they are automatically HIP if in concealment terrain. Do they appear if they are in an enemy LOS? HIP mines simply cost more (doubled) when purchasing them. But they cannot be HIP in either a road hex or a bridge hex. Correct?
Another question arose when I was explaining to my friend about Anti-tank mines. If a tank move into such a hex, the owner of the mine rolls a dr equal to the strength of the mine field both upon entrance and exit of the hex. A one strength mine field affects the tank with a roll of a one. A two strength mine attacks the tank with a roll of a one or a two on the dr. A six strength minefield is an automatic hit upon the tank. He was an expert on the game Squad leader where the mine rules were different.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Barring an SSR mines are always hidden and they are not revealed by mere LOS.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

...A six strength minefield is an automatic hit upon the tank....

5 is the maximum for an A-T minefield, IIRC.

 

[jrv]

The one exception is AT mines on paved roads.

JR

 

[EagleIV]

Except when required by SSR mines are always HIP in any terrain that they can setup in (except AP mines on paved roads) regardless of enemy LOS. They remain HIP until someone enters the location, searches for them, or by Interrogation.

You are correct about AP mines, except the most you can put in 1 location is 5 factors, not 6.

 

[Tim Niesen]

Thanks for your help. Mines are something that we very seldom use. Only scenario that I can remember is that great scenario set in the early Phillipines where the Scouts and allies attack from both sides against an elite Japanese blocking force. Love that scenario. Also some of those great and large Soviet-Japanese scenarios set in 1945 in the Bounding Fire module. Japanese are tenacious in cities as well as jungle.

 

[Eagle4ty]

The big thing to remember about A-T Mines set up on paved roads is that they can never be HIP (barring an SSR) regardless of LOS and will automatically reveal their strength upon a valid enemy LOS to them. They can also be removed MUCH easier!

 

[Tim Niesen]

What would make an exposed Anti-tank mine on a road more easier to remove than if it were in a woods hex? My knowledge of the sapper rules are minimal.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

What would make an exposed Anti-tank mine on a road more easier to remove than if it were in a woods hex? My knowledge of the sapper rules are minimal.

A28.53:
28.53 PLACEMENT: A-T Mines may be placed on a bridge, paved road, ice, or runway where A-P minefields are not allowed, but they must be in full view (i.e., their presence must be marked with an A-T Mine counter although the number of A-T Mine factors is revealed per A12.33) and are eliminated at the end of the MPh by any Infantry expending an additional MF in that hex for that purpose which is not pinned, broken, or eliminated in that hex prior to or during that MF expenditure.

 

[jrv]

What would make an exposed Anti-tank mine on a road more easier to remove than if it were in a woods hex?

On a *paved* road. Sometimes AT mines were put on the surface (rather than buried & camouflaged) of paved roads/bridges. They are Known mines in ASL terms. There was a small chance a tank/vehicle might drive over one, perhaps because of limited visibility from the tank or because the vehicle tried to weave through the mines because it was pressed for time. The more likely result is that the vehicle saw the mines and did not drive up the road until someone (the dismounted crew or infantry) pushed the mines off the road. The minefield would have to be covered by fire to be of more than negligible value.

There are cases where mines on a "paved" road were buried. In ASL these have to be implemented by SSR, because the default for mines on a paved road is to drop them on the surface. Festung Budapest allows mines (both AT and AP) in paved roads (but not bridges, except AT mines on the surface) because the defenders had the time necessary to cut through the pavement. These minefields are Known, presumably because the handiwork would be readily seen.

JR

 

[WuWei]

On a *paved* road. Sometimes AT mines were put on the surface (rather than buried & camouflaged) of paved roads/bridges. They are Known mines in ASL terms. There was a small chance a tank/vehicle might drive over one, perhaps because of limited visibility from the tank or because the vehicle tried to weave through the mines because it was pressed for time.

I put mines on a paved road in Operation Veritable to force the Canadians off the road, where they are slow and have to make bog checks (and perhaps there are some HIP mines there, too). Waiting for infantry to clear them would have cost two turns, which was also an acceptable outcome for me.

 

[jrv]

I put mines on a paved road in Operation Veritable to force the Canadians off the road, where they are slow and have to make bog checks (and perhaps there are some HIP mines there, too). Waiting for infantry to clear them would have cost two turns, which was also an acceptable outcome for me.

Against a bold opponent and/or if you place the mines too far forward this might not be as good as you think. First a tank can just drive on through, leaving a trailbreak. Second the tank could have riders, drive in, and drop off the riders who then sweep. Assuming a 13 MP tank this can be done if the mines were within 11 hexes of the board edge (assuming the tank moves at road rate and the road is flat, which it is not). I don't say you shouldn't do it, but you are going to either have to use a fair number of mines, cover the field with fire and/or place it pretty far back to avoid a first turn clearance.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

I put mines on a paved road in Operation Veritable to force the Canadians off the road, where they are slow and have to make bog checks (and perhaps there are some HIP mines there, too). Waiting for infantry to clear them would have cost two turns, which was also an acceptable outcome for me.

I don't see how it would have taken two turns to clear the minefield unless the infantry were a considerable distance from the minefield. In a single turn the infantry can move up and clear the minefield at the end of their (the) MPh (meeting MF requirements of course), in the next turn's MPh the road/bridge is clear and on you go, a slight delay of course but not two turns and at no detriment to the infantry removing them other than normal Defensive Fire.

 

[jrv]

I don't see how it would have taken two turns to clear the minefield unless the infantry were a considerable distance from the minefield. In a single turn the infantry can move up and clear the minefield at the end of their MPh (meeting MF requirements of course), in the next turn's MPh the road/bridge is clear and on you go, a slight delay of course but not two turns and at no detriment to the infantry removing them other than normal Defensive Fire.

There is only one paved road onto the board from the Canadian entry area in Operation Veritable. It is nine hexes long at level zero, with a slope between the seventh and eighth hexes. If one puts the mines in the eighth hex, it will cost infantry eight-and-a-half MF to get there with a leader & double-timing plus road bonus, leaving only only one-half MF to sweep the mines. That isn't enough.

JR

 

[Tim Niesen]

Mines are fortifications. If non HIP mines are placed within the interior of a forest or jungle, they appear when and only if enemy units become Adjacent. Perhaps. Or is this the case to non HIP mines only in PTO in regard to jungle or bambo and has no revelance to forests in WTO.

 

[Tim Niesen]

In the case of hidden fortifications in certain PTO terrain (jungle, bambo and kunia), are the enemy units within them still on board under concealment counters?

 

[Eagle4ty]

In the case of hidden fortifications in certain PTO terrain (jungle, bamboo and kunia), are the enemy units within them still on board under concealment counters?

For units within a PB/Bunker they would be HIP as well, but yes they would be placed onboard per normal LOS rules otherwise [EXC: if they themselves were HIP units of course].

 

[Tim Niesen]

But what about a foxhole in that PTO terrain? There is the foxhole hidden but the units on board?

 

[jrv]

But what about a foxhole in that PTO terrain? There is the foxhole hidden but the units on board?

There is nothing very remarkable about this. It will also happen in non-PTO when the range is > 16 and the foxhole is in concealment terrain. It leads to questions when walls/hedges are involved, but since most ranges are < 16 hexes in non-PTO and there aren't usually walls/hedges in PTO, players tend to ignore the questions.

JR

 

[Tim Niesen]

JR, You always make things clearer. In the case of Soviet/Rumanian game which is soon to start, the non HIP Rumanian mines would remain hidden in the forest until the Soviet Marines are with 16 hexes. And lack of Soviet LOS to the mines in the forest is irrelevant. Correct? My Rumanian ally is reluctant to spend his precious TP points on HIP mines.