HIP and building control

[scottf2]

Hi all,
Unless I'm missing a rule somewhere, this is probably more of an etiquette than a rules question, but:
Assume that a scenario requires building control as a VC, and there's a HIP unit preventing gain of building control.

I'm aware of A26.15 In all cases, control of a Location/hex/building by a concealed or HIP armed unit need not be declared until game end.

So my question is more about how to handle this... if my opponent moves in and assumes he has control of a building, and says something like "Ok, so, I control all these buildings..." and usually when we play a game with multiple building control VC we track control as we go, marking it with an appropriate control overlay, so maybe he changes the marker to show he has control, and I know he doesn't, but don't say anything, knowing he needs to search or mop up in order to actually win, but he doesn't realize it (since we're both relative newbies, but I'm slightly more experienced and have spent more time lately studying the rules, he might not be familiar with those rules, although I am....) So It feels a bit sleazy to wait until the end of the game, when he says "Ok, I win..." and then say, "Um, sorry, I've got this HIP unit here..."

Certainly if this is a tournament game with experienced players that could be fine, but this is a friendly game where we usually remind each other of potential mistakes, missed rules, etc. - we're more interested in learning the game, getting the rules right, helping each other to remember rules, pointing out obvious missed opportunities ("Hey, don't you want to try to repair that MG..."), etc.

Maybe the answer is to remind him to carefully read the rules about building control beforehand.

Anyway, I'm curious to know how you would handle this in a friendly game with a relatively inexperienced opponent.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[zgrose]

Anyway, I'm curious to know how you would handle this in a friendly game with a relatively inexperienced opponent.

"Remember, I have HIP units, so you may need to Mop Up to make sure you really have control of these buildings."

 

[Actionjick]

"Remember, I have HIP units, so you may need to Mop Up to make sure you really have control of these buildings."

The best way to go in my opinion. Unless your opponent has been a total jick then you may reconsider this gentlemanly approach.

 

[Actionjick]

Hi all,
Unless I'm missing a rule somewhere, this is probably more of an etiquette than a rules question, but:
Assume that a scenario requires building control as a VC, and there's a HIP unit preventing gain of building control.

I'm aware of A26.15 In all cases, control of a Location/hex/building by a concealed or HIP armed unit need not be declared until game end.

So my question is more about how to handle this... if my opponent moves in and assumes he has control of a building, and says something like "Ok, so, I control all these buildings..." and usually when we play a game with multiple building control VC we track control as we go, marking it with an appropriate control overlay, so maybe he changes the marker to show he has control, and I know he doesn't, but don't say anything, knowing he needs to search or mop up in order to actually win, but he doesn't realize it (since we're both relative newbies, but I'm slightly more experienced and have spent more time lately studying the rules, he might not be familiar with those rules, although I am....) So It feels a bit sleazy to wait until the end of the game, when he says "Ok, I win..." and then say, "Um, sorry, I've got this HIP unit here..."

Certainly if this is a tournament game with experienced players that could be fine, but this is a friendly game where we usually remind each other of potential mistakes, missed rules, etc. - we're more interested in learning the game, getting the rules right, helping each other to remember rules, pointing out obvious missed opportunities ("Hey, don't you want to try to repair that MG..."), etc.

Maybe the answer is to remind him to carefully read the rules about building control beforehand.

Anyway, I'm curious to know how you would handle this in a friendly game with a relatively inexperienced opponent.

Thanks,
Scott

Your attitude towards helping each other learn the rules by pointing out omissions and mistakes is absolutely the correct approach IMO. Well done to both of you.

 

[scottf2]

Thanks! Something along these lines was my plan... would hate to win on a technicality or forgotten/unknown rule. Looking forward to playing AP132 Night of Nights - first airdrop and night scenario for both of us - should be fun!

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Actionjick]

Thanks! Something along these lines was my plan... would hate to win on a technicality or forgotten/unknown rule. Looking forward to playing AP132 Night of Nights - first airdrop and night scenario for both of us - should be fun!

Thanks,
Scott

First time for Night and airdrop. Might as well jump in with both feet!! Played a lot of Night scenarios. From what I've seen about VASL it really seems the way to go with Night. If you guys have access to VASL I would reccomend trying a Night scenario using it. There was a thread a while back that was about VASL/Night you might want to check out. Btw advice from someone who has never used VASL.

 

[volgaG68]

"Remember, I have HIP units, so you may need to Mop Up to make sure you really have control of these buildings."

Yes, to a newish opponent, I would stress this at the start of the game.

 

[scottf2]

First time for Night and airdrop. Might as well jump in with both feet!! Played a lot of Night scenarios. From what I've seen about VASL it really seems the way to go with Night. If you guys have access to VASL I would reccomend trying a Night scenario using it. There was a thread a while back that was about VASL/Night you might want to check out. Btw advice from someone who has never used VASL.

Yes - all my games have been on VASL lately, using Discord for voice chat - great combination. Will track down that thread on night/VASL. Thanks!

 

[Eagle4ty]

Yes - all my games have been on VASL lately, using Discord for voice chat - great combination. Will track down that thread on night/VASL. Thanks!

We even use a VASL assist map when playing FtF (unit counters not added of course). It really helps visualize the illuminated areas and quick LOS checks. Night of Nights is rapidly becoming one of my favorite scenarios BTW; just a ton of fun! If you find it fun to play you may want to give A76 NIGHT DROP a try; partial night & daylight. It's slightly pro-German IIRC but not that many playings (less than 30 recorded on ROAR?) but it's a para drop scenario & anything can happen. We like it so much we play it almost every June 6th (or close to it).

 

[scottf2]

Question related to Night of Nights, which we're getting ready to start:
Regarding cloaking, E1.41 CONTENTS: The Scenario Attacker's Infantry (only) always starts the scenario in the form of Cloaking counters [EXC: Aerial landings].

I assume paradrops are "aerial landings", and that units don't come on the board cloaked after they land in the AfPh, but that the cloaking display is only used for the actual paradrop - correct? What else counts as an aerial landing? Gliders?

Thanks!

 

[Eagle4ty]

Question related to Night of Nights, which we're getting ready to start:
Regarding cloaking, E1.41 CONTENTS: The Scenario Attacker's Infantry (only) always starts the scenario in the form of Cloaking counters [EXC: Aerial landings].

I assume paradrops are "aerial landings", and that units don't come on the board cloaked after they land in the AfPh, but that the cloaking display is only used for the actual paradrop - correct? What else counts as an aerial landing? Gliders?

Thanks!

Correct on both accounts. Just a hint though, boy it's hard to find decent spots for those AA guns [EXC: the Vlakverling]. If you get the Germans, good luck at any shots at the paras in the air. The one concern we had was, although the AA Guns have to fire for the first few turns every fire phase can they change from AA mode to ground fire mode without a LOS to a para unit on the ground? We allowed the guns to change modes at will and still meet the requirement of firing every fire phase in either mode. I'm not sure this is correct, but have found no further clarification in the matter.

 

[scottf2]

Correct on both accounts. Just a hint though, boy it's hard to find decent spots for those AA guns [EXC: the Vlakverling]. If you get the Germans, good luck at any shots at the paras in the air. The one concern we had was, although the AA Guns have to fire for the first few turns every fire phase can they change from AA mode to ground fire mode without a LOS to a para unit on the ground? We allowed the guns to change modes at will and still meet the requirement of firing every fire phase in either mode. I'm not sure this is correct, but have found no further clarification in the matter.

Thanks! Seems like the scenario designer chimed in on this thread and confirmed your interpretation (at least, that's what I assume he meant by "originally" - that the restriction to keep them in AA mode was changed at some point in playtesting... but maybe he meant "as originally designed" and that the intention is to keep them in AA mode?) That thread is a year old but I'm going to post a request for clarification....

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/ap-132-night-of-nights.154651/post-1997599

 

[JohanVrijdaghs]

Hi all,
Unless I'm missing a rule somewhere, this is probably more of an etiquette than a rules question, but:
Assume that a scenario requires building control as a VC, and there's a HIP unit preventing gain of building control.

I'm aware of A26.15 In all cases, control of a Location/hex/building by a concealed or HIP armed unit need not be declared until game end.

So my question is more about how to handle this... if my opponent moves in and assumes he has control of a building, and says something like "Ok, so, I control all these buildings..." and usually when we play a game with multiple building control VC we track control as we go, marking it with an appropriate control overlay, so maybe he changes the marker to show he has control, and I know he doesn't, but don't say anything, knowing he needs to search or mop up in order to actually win, but he doesn't realize it (since we're both relative newbies, but I'm slightly more experienced and have spent more time lately studying the rules, he might not be familiar with those rules, although I am....) So It feels a bit sleazy to wait until the end of the game, when he says "Ok, I win..." and then say, "Um, sorry, I've got this HIP unit here..."

Certainly if this is a tournament game with experienced players that could be fine, but this is a friendly game where we usually remind each other of potential mistakes, missed rules, etc. - we're more interested in learning the game, getting the rules right, helping each other to remember rules, pointing out obvious missed opportunities ("Hey, don't you want to try to repair that MG..."), etc.

Maybe the answer is to remind him to carefully read the rules about building control beforehand.

Anyway, I'm curious to know how you would handle this in a friendly game with a relatively inexperienced opponent.

Thanks,
Scott

Hi Scott,

we play the same way, be fair with each other, its only a game and friendship is so much more important!

Johan.

 

[Stewart]

Thanks! Something along these lines was my plan... would hate to win on a technicality or forgotten/unknown rule. Looking forward to playing AP132 Night of Nights - first airdrop and night scenario for both of us - should be fun!

Thanks,
Scott

I would likely do this in a tournament setting as well.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Yes, to a newish opponent, I would stress this at the start of the game.

So would I.
Stating it during play could be confusing :

• it could be interpreted as an indication that I effectively have a Hipster which could deny control
• or it could be a trick to force my opponent to mop up or move through all the VC Locations possibly containing a HIP unit

Now, it also is pedagogical not to explain all things to one's opponent : for an example, I don't think it useful to explain that my emplaced Guns start HIP or that a stack with a concealment counter on top of it could be a stack of dummies.
The possibility of a HIP unit to retain control of a VC Location being a rather frequent occurrence, I believe that with slightly experimented players, there is no more need to underline the risk.
And once you lose a scenario because you weren't careful, the lesson is well learned and you won't miss it another time.

 

[Actionjick]

I would likely do this in a tournament setting as well.

Well said Sir! An admirable attitude.

 

[von Marwitz]

I'm aware of A26.15 In all cases, control of a Location/hex/building by a concealed or HIP armed unit need not be declared until game end.

So It feels a bit sleazy to wait until the end of the game, when he says "Ok, I win..." and then say, "Um, sorry, I've got this HIP unit here..."

If the VC are about Terrain Control and the Defender has HIP units, then the possibility of units remaining HIP in or close to a VC Location should be taken into account.

As this comes up relatively often, players with a bit of experience usually do that automatically, so in that case I see no need for any hints and reminders. In a tournament environment, I would not expect to receive any, even if players are of the 'friendly' and 'non-competitive' type.

In case your opponent is inexperienced or you think that he might not be aware of the possibility of Mopping Up, Searching, or the 'Stay HIP in/close to a VC Location'-Tactic, then making him aware of these things before the start of play is the right thing to do. This, of course, would also apply for a tournament environment.

von Marwitz

 

[Jazz]

I believe the proper response would be "maybe, maybe not" and it should be made every time he claims to take control of a building.....HIP or not.

 

[Actionjick]

If the VC are about Terrain Control and the Defender has HIP units, then the possibility of units remaining HIP in or close to a VC Location should be taken into account.

As this comes up relatively often, players with a bit of experience usually do that automatically, so in that case I see no need for any hints and reminders. In a tournament environment, I would not expect to receive any, even if players are of the 'friendly' and 'non-competitive' type.

In case your opponent is inexperienced or you think that he might not be aware of the possibility of Mopping Up, Searching, or the 'Stay HIP in/close to a VC Location'-Tactic, then making him aware of these things before the start of play is the right thing to do. This, of course, would also apply for a tournament environment.

von Marwitz

For all players reviewing the scenario prior to play is a good idea although truth be told we generally did not practice this and just had at it.

 

[Stewart]

Something as simple as, asking "do I have 1 squad equivalent to HIP or 2?"
you've reminded him slyly that you have HIP and not telling him that he needs to MOP up/search or whatever.
SOME opponents get their panties in a bunch when you try to "teach" them.
Like ANYONE but Klas knows all the rules....CMON MAN!!