Hidden Guns and setup order

turlusiflu

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As per A12.12, The player setting up first in a scenario does so out of vision of his opponent, and after setting up his regular units may place only scenario OB-designated "?" at first—but only in Terrain listed in red in the Terrain Chart/Desert Terrain Chart/PTO Terrain Chart . After his opponent sets up in the same manner, each unconcealed unit (of both sides) which is either out of the LOS of all unbroken enemy ground units within 16 hexes of it, or at ≥ 17 hexes from all of them, may have a "?" not designated by the OB placed on it.

As per A12.34, ...An Emplaced Gun may also always use HIP if not in Concealment Terrain, provided it sets up out of the LOS of all enemy ground units—but must be placed onboard under a "?" as soon as a Good Order enemy ground unit has a LOS to it regardless of range, e.g., at the start of the first RPh.

So (under a sequential point of view), if the player setting up first sets an Emplaced Gun in non-Concealment Terrain can do so, as there is no enemy in LOS. Then, if the opponent sets his units onboard and in LOS of the Hidden Gun, this Gun is put onboard under a "?". But the second player has also an Emplaced Gun, and if he sets up it in non-Concealment Terrain and in LOS of the enemy units, it cannot be put under a "?". It seems "unfair" for the second player, so I wonder if this setup has to be considered "simultaneous", so neither of the Guns could be set up hidden/concealed under the conditions above.
 
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Honosbinda

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It's sort of unfair but usually the second player is the attacker (moving first) and they 'unfairly' start with more troops, right? Usually they are going to use their gun right away, anyway, whereas the defender may try to ambush.

What scenario are you referencing, if any?
 

Jazz

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The way that I have always seen it played is that all Guns that are legally able to set up HIP do so. Barring an SSR to the contrary, both sides can set up Guns HIP even in non concealment terrain.

Nothing is revealed/put on board until play actually starts and there are units in play that have LOS.

At least that is how i've always seen it played.
 

turlusiflu

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It's sort of unfair but usually the second player is the attacker (moving first) and they 'unfairly' start with more troops, right? Usually they are going to use their gun right away, anyway, whereas the defender may try to ambush.

What scenario are you referencing, if any?
For instance TAC54 In the Name of Rome. Both sides have a 5/8" mortar to setup onboard, the Russians first.

It's a good point what you suggest
 

turlusiflu

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The way that I have always seen it played is that all Guns that are legally able to set up HIP do so. Barring an SSR to the contrary, both sides can set up Guns HIP even in non concealment terrain.

Nothing is revealed/put on board until play actually starts and there are units in play that have LOS.

At least that is how i've always seen it played.
This is the sort of "simultaneous" setup that I mentioned. Maybe the "sequential" setup is more accurate with the rules text, but there is margin to interpretation
 

turlusiflu

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I think the rules are clear on this. The player setting up second can't set up a Gun hidden in non-? terrain if there is a LOS to an enemy unit.
Agree with this, klas, but my doubt is, as both sides start on the map, it seems "strange" that one side may setup hidden units and the other not. Related to this, the comment of Honosbinda makes some sense about that.
 

Honosbinda

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I think the rules are clear on this. The player setting up second can't set up a Gun hidden in non-? terrain if there is a LOS to an enemy unit.
Agree the rules and the pregame sequence of play indicate this is how it is handled
For instance TAC54 In the Name of Rome. Both sides have a 5/8" mortar to setup onboard, the Russians first.

It's a good point what you suggest
sorry not familiar with that scenario, unfortunately.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Agree with this, klas, but my doubt is, as both sides start on the map, it seems "strange" that one side may setup hidden units and the other not. Related to this, the comment of Honosbinda makes some sense about that.
I can agree on that is might seem strange - but I don't see any wiggle/interpretation room on this in the rules.
 

Eagle4ty

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There's probably not enough scenarios with both sides having Guns to really make a difference that the Attacker will be allowed to HIP them (And when there is, there is usually an SSR to the effect both sides set up as if their opponent were entering from off-board). In most scenarios the Attacker is under a time crunch anyway and will probably use ordnance fairly early to help force the issue; so in my estimation concealment (or lack thereof if placed in OG in LOS of a GO/Unbroken enemy unit) is within the realm of acceptability and real probability.

[EDIT] There is no FAIR in a gunfight!
 
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